View Full Version : G3 internal scsi termination is terminal...

04-30-2001, 03:18 PM
Well I was messin' with the guts of my Beige G3 Mt and seem to have managed to have lost internal scsi. Specifically, my Zip does not work...and when I hook up an old scsi hdd it will not go either. Both get power but no data exchange...ASP, Drive Setup, and Norton cannot find these drives. What I did was attempt to flash the Sonnet Tempo Ultra 66 card with the rom bios from Acard as Acard offers limited support for removable media drives. Well...The cd-rom and cd-rw (Sony) were recognized and all was good with the boot hdd on ATA bus 0 when the cpu was hot. Shutdown for ten and restart resulted in grey screen so I moved the hdds back to the card bus and iinstaslled the cd-rom and cd-rw on ide bus 0 and 1. All appeared good so closed up the box. However, attempted to retreive some data on zip and the system could not find it. So somewhere in the process of flashing the card and moving all the drives around I seem to have flurped something up!

To date I have done a clean install of OS 9.1, flashed the pram, reset the cuda, reseated the zif, reinstalled the hdd on ide bus 0/1, installed Iomega's tool box (cannot see drive), checked the zip's termination and id, tried the zip in different slots on the wire...ANY ideas as to what I have done and how to flurping fix it? Did I kill the internal scsi? ASP reports the card on the scsi bus and id's the drives as device 2 and 3. THe Zip is terminated and has it's id set to 5 (stock config)...Ahhhhhhhh.....I think I remember Magician or another "guru" referring to the loss of the internal scsi bus's termination????

[This message has been edited by spaz2 (edited 03 May 2001).]

04-30-2001, 04:08 PM
I don't understand those damned ATA cards and you lost me in the narrative (read it three times).

I'm the one that lost a bus, but it was one of the ATA channels not the SCSI bus. It was caused by booting from the OS X CD. It came back with a NVRAM flush (Cold start, three boings holding down CMD-OPT-P-R.)

04-30-2001, 09:09 PM
Heh Louie,
Thanks for the reponce ( I knew you would be in first....most diligent one). NVRAM the same as the Pram flash (cmd+opt+p+r)? Three bongs have already been tried (maybe thats why my messages ramble so much...). Pram flash did not work but no harm done in trying again (I hope). I may have left out the "cold start" part. I'll try later this p.m..

I would have sworn Magician dropped a reference to the internal scsi loseing it's termination. Is this possible and/or relevant? I'm in the dark again and wishing I had gone to universsity/college/tech school for something useful instead of psychology/philosophy.

Thanks again


04-30-2001, 10:16 PM
Zapping the PRAM only gets the upper levels of the PRAM. The cold start is necessary to flush the NVRAM (lower levels).

04-30-2001, 10:30 PM
Thanx again! I will do the NVRAM flash from a cold start in a couple of hrs...Maybe I'll wait to the AM and do it really cold. What is "in" the NVRAM? If I do this proceedure any risks? TIA.


[This message has been edited by spaz2 (edited 30 April 2001).]

04-30-2001, 10:48 PM
Non-Volatile Random Access Memory- video settings, PCI card locations, HD's attached, XLR8 Extension goodies and many other deep, dark secrets. It requires a need to know and clearance from Steve Jobs to get the complete list.

It really doesn't have to be cold; just off. You will need to reset Date and Time, maybe video resolution.

It's not a flash, but a flush. Firmware is flashed.

[This message has been edited by Louie (edited 30 April 2001).]

05-01-2001, 12:00 AM
Hmmmm...the NVRAM flush does not seem to have had the desired effect...still no Zip! From a "coldish" (comp was off for twenty min.) start with cmd+opt+p+r held for the requisite "three bongs" and then released for bootup. Maybe I'll pull the battery overnight>>>>any issues in doing so?

05-01-2001, 08:34 PM
It will reset the PRAM. If the battery is old, it might be good to replace it.

You really need someone that at least pretends to understand those damned ATA cards and that can understand what you really did while flashing the card. Therein lies your problem.

05-01-2001, 09:21 PM
Yah your right. No Zip yet! What have I done to my poor little Zip! Maybe it is OK and the bus is toast. No! That would be worse....

Hmmmmm... It is kinda strange that I can't get any of the SCSI devices to work on the internal bus (cd-rom, hdd, and of coarse the Zip). Omly SCSI stuff that ASP can find are the hdd drives hooked up to the card and they are IDE hdd...on the SCSI bus...

05-01-2001, 10:57 PM
Does SCSI Probe see the internal bus/drives? As I remember, SCSI Probe will see a good bus even if nothing is attached to it. What happens when you strip everything out (including the ATA controller) except an ATA boot drive and CD? Then add one trustworthy SCSI device to see if it shows up. I don't trust Zips!

05-02-2001, 01:35 AM
ok.....I think part of the problem here is confusion between bus numbering, IDE buses, and SCSI buses.

contributing to the problem is the fact that these IDE cards often EMULATE SCSI, and appear to be SCSI cards to utilities like SCSIProbe and ASP.

my head hurts right now, so without reviewing everything and slogging thru it all, I will throw this out: simplify, and revert back to a known-good config, and get everything back to normal.

THEN, let's start over, step by step.

make sure you know the difference between internal SCSI and internal IDE. Be clear on which devices are IDE and which are SCSI. I don't mean be clear on the forums....I mean be clear in your own head. If you're clear, then we'll be clear.

I'll surf thru again in the AM.


05-02-2001, 02:19 AM
Yah I think I'm clear.

two built in ide bus (0 & 1)
one internal scsi bus (the Zip was on it originally)
Sonnet Tempo 66 in the PCI slot (ASP and other ut's label attached hdds as SCSI and they assign Id's to).
PCI USB card with Printer and stuff....
Floppy with it's own id....

I appreciate what you are saying Magician. I'll pull my components and then I'll return it to stock config. and see what I get.


P.s. The only scsi device installed on the internal scsi bus was the Zip. All other removeable and fixed media drives are IDE. I have a bunch of old scsi hdds and cd-rom drives to mess with but they are not part of the picture (although I have tried to install them in order to see if the Zip was toast or the issue was with the G's ability to deal with/find the scsi internal).

[This message has been edited by spaz2 (edited 02 May 2001).]

05-02-2001, 12:45 PM
ok, Spaz.

thanks for that first paragraph. That cleared things up for me real fine.

be careful with Zip internal SCSI devices. Did this unit come from Apple preinstalled in your machine? Or did you install it as an after-market add-on?

the reason I ask is, not all SCSI Zip raw mechanisms I have seen even have TE pins for enabling termination. If this device is the sole device on the internal logic board SCSI bus, it has to be terminated, as it is at the end of the bus.

now.....it just so happens, that even misconfigured devices (like Zip drives which are not correctly terminated) CAN work for awhile, and then suddenly puke when something changes in the environment (like flashing an Acard, for example). It is very unlikely that you damaged your actual logic board. What is very likely is that you are not correctly terminating the Zip internally--and that could also mean that termination circuitry, if it is even present on the mechanism, could also have failed.

so. Reverting back to a stable config is a good idea. Once you are there, then simply inspect the Zip. Are there TE pins on its underside or rear? If so, are they populated with a jumper? If not, make them so. Do not get confused between TE and TP--as longtime readers of these forums know, they are not the same.

remember also that there is one SCSI bus on the Gossamer logic board. It has both internal and external connectors, but it is one bus. If you attach something internally, the last internal device must be terminated. If you attach something externally, the last external device must be terminated. Never use ID7. Don't duplicate ID's internally that you are using externally. It's the SAME bus.

ok? Good luck! Hope this helps.


05-03-2001, 11:38 AM
I'm such an IDIOT!

Did as advised and returned to rig to stock configuration...and the zip still did not come back! So I had my tantrum (another one) and when done I unplugged everything and pulled all of the pci cards and the av personality card and the ram and... reinstallled and still NOTHIN'! In frustration I removed the scsi cable (which I was reluctant to do 'cause I can never reinstall them as neatly as the Apple crew can) and...guess what...tiny little slice in the scsi cable... Man, I am such an $$^^%*! I AM SO SORRY to waste your time and so appreciate your input! With thanx as allways!



05-03-2001, 11:54 AM
it's cool....it happens to the best of us.