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MadDog
12-03-2000, 09:27 PM
OK, considering that the J700 has 4 PCI slots to begin with, that should mean the bridge chip is there. SOooooo, it stands to reason that it might be possible that you could add 2 PCI sockets if you were brave enough to solder on the motherboard.

Can anyone give me the obvious flaw in my logic ?

Mad Dog

Louie
12-03-2000, 11:05 PM
You better be sure the DEC bridge is there. I think one Bandit can handle four slots in a pinch.

magician
12-04-2000, 02:47 AM
I would wait for k to weigh in. I think he has actually put his hands on a J700.

I am not a big fan of soldering on working logic boards. Robots do it better than we ever could.

Michael
12-04-2000, 09:28 AM
amen
M

MadDog
12-04-2000, 09:49 PM
...but Mad Scientists do it for FUN !

Seriously, I would have to examine the board when I get it (I won an auction for one kit), and compare to the pic of a S900.

Does anyone have a good, detailed pic of a S900 board I can use to compare ?

If the boards look the same, and the only diff is the lack of 2 sockets, I JUST MIGHT DO IT !!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !

[and they called ME MAD ?!?!]

Mad Dog

magician
12-05-2000, 03:06 AM
pretty sure there used to be one on the UMAX site somewhere....you may have to delve into their knowledge base thing....I can remember having to do searches, then stumbling across it.

I'll look around on my machine, too....I used to have one, somewhere. Let me clean things up a little, then I'll do some searches. No telling where that thing is.

kaye
12-05-2000, 09:24 AM
I don't have a J700 nor a detailed mobo pix, but go here and compare the Pulsar MP with the Pulsar SP pix (which I can only guess is a J700) http://www.newsell.de/shop/Pulsar.html and you can see the two extra PCI slots and the extra CPU slot are there, but there may not be any tracings on the front or back side. Also those PCI slots would have to be connected to the Bridge chip (and then to the Bandit) for them to be useful. k

kaye
12-05-2000, 09:42 AM
BTW, the Umax links to pix of the S900 mobo are still on the website but the actual pix are gone. I checked their ftp site and they are not there either. k

MadDog
12-05-2000, 10:46 PM
> you may have to delve into their knowledge base

Thats my next step. Maybe I can find a newsgroup to cover this, too.

> I'll do some searches

Thanks. That warms my Mad Scientist heart, you know.

> but go here and compare the Pulsar MP with the Pulsar SP pix

Thanks, I got the pix, now I will have to blow them up and take a look. I am guessing the 2 large chips to the right of the slots are PCI controllers ?
Unfortunately, blown up, they arent that detailed.

> but there may not be any tracings on the front or back side

Very true. Although not directly pertinant, I see that the PowerCurve mobo I have has soldered over slots (Int. Fast SCSI), it does appear to have (surface) traces going to the spots.
My point being, is I would bet that UMAX, in order to have some cost savings, and to differentiate the 2 product lines (J700 and S900) might of just not put in the PCI and extra CPU sockets on the J700. I would _think_ making a whole new mobo layout (if you made the J700 with no traces to the missing slots), this would add extra expense to the design and defeat the purpose of cost savings.

But then again, I may just be quite raving MAD !

> Also those PCI slots would have to be connected to the Bridge chip (and then to > the Bandit) for them to be useful

Yep. But I would wager if the 2 Bandits/Bridges (which is it ?) are there, it just might be possible.

Anyone for a wager ? : )

Mad Dog

PS: I am out of control. HELP. I am an Ebay junkie. My wife gives me the evil eye when I chortle over my newest "patient". One of my guest bedrooms is overflowing with parts. Am I curable ?

Louie
12-06-2000, 05:32 PM
It's one Bandit controller and one DEC bridge.

MadDog
12-06-2000, 09:50 PM
>It's one Bandit controller and one DEC bridge.

...and...uh...is that good ? It looks like the S900 has the same, but I need a close look.
I have the parts ordered, should get here Friday, and the power supply should arrive early next week. If the camera gets here soon, I can take a high res pic (the Sony cam we ordered is like 3.x megapixels..SWEET)

Mad Dog

Will S
12-07-2000, 05:26 AM
Hi to all been a while since I've posted on here. I own and use
a J700 as my main machine. I was told by a friend who looked it over
that the S900 and J700 motherboards are exactly the same except
for the missing 2 pci slots and the second cpu slot.He told me if I could find the slots they could be added.
The box even has the PCI slots in place(all six) Good luck with your project
I'm no good at all with a soldiering iron so I'd really be nuts to
start working on mine!
Will S

[This message has been edited by Will S (edited 07 December 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Will S (edited 07 December 2000).]

kaye
12-07-2000, 01:19 PM
Actually two Bandits without that DEC bridge is better, but still the S900/J700 are great machines. Having two Bandits allows running two SCSI BusMaster cards such as two Miles2, with matched drives, and striping the whole bunch of drives into a faster RAID than a single Miles2 can run on a vintage Mac. Sustained write with a single Miles2 peaks at about 40MB/s, no matter how many drives, including X15's, you attach in a vintage Mac. With two Miles2, vintage Mac, sustained write goes to about 76MB/s with four X15's.

Unlike sustained write, sustained read continues to go up as you add more drives to either one Miles2 or two Miles2. I don't know where that limit is on a vintage Mac. I ran out of physical internal hard drive space and money before I found the limit. For two Miles2 (requiring two Bandits of course) and each driving two X15's (total of four), I got sustained reads of about 129MB/s.

The version of OS you are running has an effect on these benchmarks. k

MadDog
12-07-2000, 09:34 PM
OK, I just had a horrible realization that might doom my idea:

How does a computer differentiate an empty PCI slot, and a PCI slot that doesnt have a socket installed (like the 2 blank spots on the J700) ?


Does anyone have a J700 they can run a late version of Apples system profiler (or a utility that tells you how many slots are on the motherboard) on ? Does it see 6 slots or 4 ?

How about the ROM version between a S900 and J700 ? Can anyone read those out for me ?

I have a bad feeling that the ROM defines how many PCI slots are present, and even if you add 2 sockets, they might not show up (assuming the ROMs are different between the J700 and S900). I also had a bad feeling that the ROM on the J700/S900 is soldered on.

What do you think ?

Mad Dog

Louie
12-07-2000, 10:55 PM
ASP only shows a slot if it's filled. With a S900, ASP (or PCI Slots Utility) shows "Tree Bandit" for $A1 and $B1. When it gets to $C1, it says" Tree Bandit-PCI Bridge" and then shows no others because they all on the same bridge.

EGPoulin
12-07-2000, 11:27 PM
MadDog,

A few days ago, I posted in the SuperMac forum that the Umax FTP had the C-Series and S900 service manuals still avaible (as well as all the original drivers for their machines).

Did you see that and was it any help to answer any questions?

~~~E~~~

Louie
12-07-2000, 11:59 PM
I missed that. Can you point me to it. I've got a brand new S900 sitting next to me.

kaye
12-08-2000, 02:21 AM
Louie,

ftp://ftp.umax.com/

k

MadDog
12-08-2000, 05:49 PM
>ASP only shows a slot if it's filled.

Rats. Louie, ASP should show a ROM version. What does your read as ?

> A few days ago, I posted in the SuperMac forum that the Umax FTP....

Unfortunately, none of the stuff I got from the Umax/Supermac site led me to a conclusion.

I hope to get the J700 mobo in today whereupon I will take a good digital pic.

Can anyone here send me a good pic of the S900 mobo ? My mailserver should be able to handle 2 meg files , or if anyone can place it on a website I can get to.

thanks,

Mad Dog

Louie
12-08-2000, 06:06 PM
You asked what my S900 shows for a ROM. The answer is 8500, which surprises me until you think about it; it only has two+ real PCI slots.

The PTP thinks it's a 9500.

kaye
12-08-2000, 06:53 PM
I asked a friend who has several loose S900 mobos to scan one. He left town on monkey business and will be back wednesday. He said he would scan it when he returned. But my modem is probably going to take another day with the scans he sends in pieces. Anyway I'll have it even if, by then, you don't need it. k

MadDog
12-08-2000, 10:07 PM
> You asked what my S900 shows for a ROM. The answer is 8500

Oops, Looking at ASP, I shouldve asked for ROM revision. For exmaple, my BW G3 (Rev 2) shows a ROM revision of $77D.45F6.
I am assuming that the ROM revision is meaningful, so sorry if the question is dumb.

> it only has two+ real PCI slots

Thats due to the different overall PCI controller setup ?

>I asked a friend who has several loose S900 mobos to scan one.

Thanks Kaye.

Unfortunately, the J700 mobo didnt arrive today so I will have to wait until Monday.

in the meantime, I put the question to a newsgroup and on xlr8yourmac.com to see if I can actually find someone who has tried this. Enquiring minds and all !

thanks to everyone for the info. I appreciate all of you feeding my madness : )

Mad Dog

Louie
12-08-2000, 10:34 PM
$77D.28F2

MadDog
12-08-2000, 10:56 PM
> $77D.28F2

Thanks Louie

Mad DOg

Will S
12-09-2000, 01:33 AM
Mad Dog, I just checked the Rom version in Apple profiler and it is
$77D.28F2 for my J700 same as Louies S900. Yes the Rom is soldiered on both boards. This was something I checked out when I was working on getting
a"System disk" panel that would work with OSXpb on these two machines.
I was checking to see what the differences if any were. I found none
other then the missing two PCI slots and 2nd Cpu slot. So the "System Disk " panel which you have a copy of works on both machines! Some people do have a different rom version...but it seems to be on earlier production
and shows up on both S900 and J700 boards same as the later production boards. The listed rom version is the newer board rom version. I'm guessing the
S910 boards may have a different rom version also but haven't checked this.
WillS

magician
12-09-2000, 09:06 AM
here's a pic I just found on one of my drives.

http://www.macgurus.com/graphics/mbumaxs900.gif

MadDog
12-09-2000, 04:24 PM
>Mad Dog, I just checked the Rom version in Apple profiler and it is $77D.28F2 for my J700 same as Louies S900.

Aha ! Unless the ROM checker is reading the MAC OS ROM software file in the system folder (I have no idea), I take this to be a good sign.

Same ROM
Same controllers
Same layout

I cant think of anything else that worries me.

>So the "System Disk " panel which you have a copy of works on both machines!

The what ? "system disk" ?

>panel that would work with OSXpb on these two machines.

Did you ever get OS X working on either machine ?

>(Magician) here's a pic I just found on one of my drives.

Thanks Magician.

thanks

Mad Dog

MadDog
12-09-2000, 05:32 PM
Aha ! I posted my question on xlr8yourmac.com forums :

bbs.xlr8yourmac.com/ubb/Forum11/HTML/000143.html

and according to M. Isobe (this guy makes me look like a conservative nun when it comes to hardware hacking) it can be done.

Wahoo !

Mad Dog

kaye
12-09-2000, 07:00 PM
Isobe is the guy who discovered that some S900/J700 motherboards have jumper pins to physically disable the L2 cache. I checked my builtup S900 and it does not have those pins. But some soldering can create the pins. My other S900 I have not looked.

Here is what was said:

Rob S Junior Member posted 07-23-2000 06:39 PM ??? ???? ?? ??
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Got this tip from Michiro Isobe. Sorry if I spelt that wrong.
Need to solder a jumper on J38. It's right above the processor slot. It worked great for me. I was able to clock the bus from 49 to 54Mhz and get my G4 400 to give a boot chime.

M. Isobe Junior Member posted 07-23-2000 08:34 PM ??? ???? ?? ??
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you Rob,
I will add some details about J38 jumper.
The J38 jumper is connected to "/CachePrsnt" signal of the Hammerhead memory controller, which is used for the recognition of L2 cache DIMM of 7500/8500. When the signal is asserted, the motherboard disables L2.

I have seen some UMAX S900 has been soldered this jumper initially. If you are lucky one to have such revision, you can disable L2 by simply adding jumper block. If you not and there is only soldering patterns on you mother board, you can still disable L2 by adding jumper pin or simply short the J38 patterns.
The J38 pin (or soldering patterns) exists between primary CPU slot and DIMM slot.

k

MadDog
12-09-2000, 10:14 PM
In regards to disabling the L2 motherboard cache on a S900 (and presumably J700), I thought the more recent CPU cards would disable the L2 automatically ?
A quick read through the xlr8yourmac.com CPU upgrade database didnt seem to indicate this problem.

As for Isobe... that guy either is a really good HW engineer or really rich , and has a houseful of busted up macs from experimenting.

kaye
12-10-2000, 01:08 AM
MD,

Yes, G3/G4 card software will disable the L2 cache. There is some mystery here because the manufacturers still recommend physically removing L2 if you can. But some guys have found that using the jumper on the S900/J700 will allow them to overclock higher and more reliably, particularly the G4.

So for whatever reason, the jumper that Isobe mentions apparently does a better job, like physically removing L2 if you can. k

MadDog
12-10-2000, 11:16 AM
> But some guys have found that using the jumper on the S900/J700 will allow them to overclock higher and more reliably, particularly the G4

[Glazed look in Mad Dogs eyes]
...overclock..better ?..... must...solder...in...jumper...overclock...better.. .

Looks like I am going to put a digikey order together today.

Mad Dog

magician
12-10-2000, 01:11 PM
damn.

what a hack.

Louie
12-10-2000, 01:34 PM
He may be Certifiable!

MadDog
12-10-2000, 07:45 PM
>He may be Certifiable!

>damn. what a hack.

Heh heh heh... Talk like that just encourages me. Maybe I should show you my pictures of a PMac 6100 in an ATX case, eh ?

I guess I truly am a hack, as I barely know what I am doing !! Hahahahahahahaha !

Needless to say, when I get the J700, I will take a hard look at how crowded the blank PCI slots are to make sure I can handle the soldering.

I can tell you in advance, that if I can pull this off (adding 2 PCI slots to the J700), I will immensely proud of myself http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/rad.gif http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Mad Dog

Louie
12-10-2000, 09:53 PM
I've got a Classic II and a Quadra 605 that I'll sell you. You could put both of the in an ATX case.

Will S
12-11-2000, 05:10 AM
>So the "System Disk " panel which you have a copy of works on both machines!

The what ? "system disk" ?

>panel that would work with OSXpb on these two machines.

Did you ever get OS X working on either machine ?


thanks

Mad Dog

Yes, OSX has been running on my J700 since Sept 13,2000 with no real problems other then no printing. I've heard that Apple and HP laserprinters work but I don't have one...
Thanks to the guy who wrote the fix for sound and a control panel for my XLR8 G3 it runs really well! Ryan something the info is on the xlr8yourmac site.
The"System Diskfor S900/J700 was uploaded to your FTP soon after it was finished. It took three of us to get it to work right! It was needed because while the OSX install sees it as an Apple 8500 (9500 sometimes)when it doesn't find any on board video it crashes. The system disk panel fools it into passing this test! You also need an Apple cd player and an older ATI or twinturbo card in order to get it to install on these machines! I have it all written up and have shared the info with the Lowendmac Supermac e-mail list. Your welcome to a copy if you want it.

magician
12-11-2000, 02:35 PM
there is a forum here for OSX step-by-step installs, I believe.

MadDog
12-11-2000, 09:31 PM
Will, I would love to get your description of the OS X install.

thanks,

Tom

MadDog
12-11-2000, 09:36 PM
>I've got a Classic II and a Quadra 605 that I'll sell you. You could put both of the in an ATX case.

What ? You want both in the same case at the same time ? Sounds...interesting....


Mad Dog

MadDog
12-11-2000, 09:51 PM
It has arrived ! (Strom Surge Rev B, 1996)

One of the fun things about getting a new piece of hardware is looking at it and trying to figure out what different parts on it do.

Take this J700 motherboard. I see that the PCI sockets are relatively open, and I think I could do the job of adding 2 more sockets (of, course, now I have to find the correct socket type...), but it is close to the edge of my abilities to do so..

I wonder why UMAX designed the Apollo card when all other maunfacturers just put the ports on the end of the motherboard.

Why did UMAX use an oddball power supply ?

I found J38... I can do that easy.

Take a look at J44, at the front end of the board (marked "MIC"). What is a 6 pin jumper (microphone ?) for ?

Take a look at J45, at the front end of the board (marked "AUDIO"). What is a 6 pin jumper for ? I havnt seen either of these 6 pin jumpers on any other boards.

What is the 2 pin jumper J-29 ("NMI") for ?

What is the 3 pin jumper J-43 ("CLK ???" near the end of the board) for ?

What is the 2 pin jumper J-30 ("SERVER" near the bottom of the board) for ?

I notice that there is no sound in. There is a solder over spot for a microphone on the back end of the board.

J-13 is a small socket marked "AUX". Is this used for anything ? I notice it is the same size as a DOS card cable.

...and the most bizare question of all: I got a CPU card with the bundle. The top of the card has a small socket, about the size of a floppy cable socket. Is this for a multiprocessing option ?

Maybe I should subscribe to the Supermac list. http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Anyway, thanks for letting me ramble on.

I cant think of anywhere else where I can spew MadScientistSpeak ! MacGurus http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/kickass.gif

Mad Dog

magician
12-12-2000, 02:21 AM
sounds like you are describing the jumpers that handle the bundle of wires that come from the front of the machine.

I suspect NMI denotes "non-maskable interrupt," meaning support for a debugger button.

Will S
12-12-2000, 03:28 AM
MadDog
Member
posted 11 December 2000 21:31


Will, I would love to get your description of the OS X install.

thanks,

Tom
No problem where should I send it or which forum should I post it to?

kaye
12-12-2000, 12:27 PM
MD,

I can hazard a guess to some of your questions.

>>I wonder why UMAX designed the Apollo card when all other maunfacturers just put the ports on the end of the motherboard.

Power did this also on their early boxes, the NuBus ones, so that they could fit everything into their very small MT ATX case. I'm sure the DT is even more cramped. Even though the Umax tower ATX case is taller, I think they just ran out of room on the mobo up against the backplane.

>>Why did UMAX use an oddball power supply ?

Have forgotten the model number but my recollection is that it is a SeaSonic which was a very popular PS manufacturer with clone companies.

>>I notice that there is no sound in. There is a solder over spot for a microphone on the back end of the board.

Go here http://www.newsell.de/shop/Pulsar.html and you can see little ports on the very bottom front. The left one is Microphone/Audio In, the right one is Audio Out for headphones. The Microphone/Audio In takes an Apple PlainTalk microphone or a stereo mini-plug from another sound-in source. Go to the bottom of the same page linked above and look at the Audio-Jack. That is what you need.

>>...and the most bizare question of all: I got a CPU card with the bundle. The top of the card has a small socket, about the size of a floppy cable socket. Is this for a multiprocessing option ?

Yes, that is my recollection. k

kaye
12-12-2000, 12:56 PM
MD,

Look at the latest main page http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/ and you will see links to Isobe's latest, adding PCI slots to the J700 and where to get the PCI slot hardware. You might email him about where to get the Audio-Jack. k

MadDog
12-12-2000, 07:15 PM
MD,

I can hazard a guess to some of your questions.

>>Why did UMAX use an oddball power supply ?

Have forgotten the model number but my recollection is that it is a SeaSonic which was a very popular PS manufacturer with clone companies.

-----
I hear it is a Seasonic SS-250 GPX. Still, it seems like ATX would of been a cost savings to use....
-----

>>I notice that there is no sound in. There is a solder over spot for a microphone on the back end of the board.

Go here http://www.newsell.de/shop/Pulsar.html and you can see little ports on the very bottom front. The left one is Microphone/Audio In, the right one is Audio Out for headphones. The Microphone/Audio In takes an Apple PlainTalk microphone or a stereo mini-plug from another sound-in source. Go to the bottom of the same page linked above and look at the Audio-Jack. That is what you need.

----
HHmm.... I wonder if it would be easier to solder on a sound-in jack on the motherboard than to get a part from Germany and hack it into a case. [we know the answer to that question, dont we ?]
----

Thanks,

mad Dog

MadDog
12-12-2000, 07:21 PM
>Look at the latest main page http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/ and you will see links to Isobe's latest, adding PCI slots to the J700 and where to get the PCI slot hardware.

HOLY $HIT !! http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/kickass.gif http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/rad.gif

I am FAMOUS ! Look at me, I am doing the VICTORY DANCE ! YES !!!!!!

My THREAD, formally on the FRONT page of xlr8yourmac.com !!!

Who is your HARDWARE hacking BIG DADDY ! Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha !

Super groovy, he even put in a link to the correct PCI socket !

Man, this makes my day ! (Ok, time for my medicine...)

Mad Dog http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/jollyroger.gif http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

JayPee
12-13-2000, 09:19 AM
Give that man some Xanax, valium just isn't going to cut it..

http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

MadDog
12-13-2000, 09:46 PM
Well, after my wife does me with havana sized thorazine, I feel much more ..better..

Well, I got the J700 power supply from Smalldog, and I grabbed a hard drive and Rage 128 I have and put it all together.

It boots !

Now I have to find a local shop that sells the AMP PCI edge sockets, and a case, and I am ready to HACK ! http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/rad.gif

If I take digital pics during the operation, anyone want them ?

thanks,

Mad Dog

MadDog
12-13-2000, 09:47 PM
>Well, after my wife does me with havana sized thorazine, I feel much more ..better..

Ahem ! that should be "dose". I will leave the rest to your interpretation... http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Mad DOg

kaye
12-15-2000, 11:22 AM
MD,

My friend sent me the scans of the S900 mobo. Took two scans to get left and right sides with some overlap. Each is about 1.4MB as a 300dpi jpg. I opened them in Photoshop and you can read everything zooming in, chip numbers/letters, etc., they are very clear. Stuffing them (sit) does not reduce the size almost at all.

If you still want them, email me. I would be sending them separately and late at night because of my modem speed. k

MadDog
12-15-2000, 02:25 PM
Kaye, thanks for getting the pics of the S900. Please email to me at

gionpeters@home.com

My mailserver should be able to handle those size files.

If that doesnt work, I can give you my IP and login/psswd for my computer and you can just copy them over (that is too cool).

thanks,

Mad Dog

MadDog
12-15-2000, 02:28 PM
Well, wouldnt you know, I cant find slot edge connecters for blood or money. The companies that make them dont deal with the public, and the only places that carry them , make you order the minimum number (20,000 - yes, thats not a joke).
No local stores have them.

This is going to get ugly, I am going to have to pull some connecters off of a dead motherboard.

Mad Dog

magician
12-15-2000, 02:52 PM
maybe you could ask them for samples.

MadDog
12-15-2000, 06:27 PM
Well, I could try samples, but then I would have to come up with some sort of company name, like "Mad Science, Inc",or "Insane Canine Productions" or something like that....

I dont want the AMP Inc police coming to my door at midnight if they found out I am not a company, except in my mind....

I think I am going to have to do the nasty on some dead PC motherboard. It is only fitting , however, that my new creation LIVES with the help of the dark side....

Mad Dog

jeff walther
12-15-2000, 07:02 PM
Hi,

Kaye told me there was a mad scientist on the loose over here...

These have mostly been answered, but I'll hit them again anyway.

> Take a look at J44, at the front end of the board (marked "MIC"). What is a 6 > pin jumper (microphone ?) for ?

> Take a look at J45, at the front end of the board (marked "AUDIO"). What is a > 6 pin jumper for ? I havnt seen either of these 6 pin jumpers on any other
> boards.

The above two connect to cables that connect to the Venus sound board, which, as Kaye pointed out, NewSell has for 1 DM. I can't recommend them as a source at the moment, but hopefully that will all work out. That's a great price for the Venus, because the two stereo audio jacks alone are about $2 each, so building your own board would cost considerably more (until you consider shipping from Germany). The Venus board is really simple. It's just two stereo mini-jacks with about nine 2.2 nF surface mount caps on it. Of course, the microphone jack is Apple's funky powered jack for their mic.

> What is the 3 pin jumper J-43 ("CLK ???" near the end of the board) for ?

This is for supplying an external clock signal to the geoport serial port. You can run the serial ports at some ridiculously high data rate if an external clock is supplied. I would guess that if anyone has ever used this feature it was only some scientific data collection tool. This port is also present on the 7200 and 7500 (and I presume on the 8500 and 9500).

> What is the 2 pin jumper J-30 ("SERVER" near the bottom of the board) for ?

I've been told that this causes the machine to boot back up after a power outage. I've never tried it myself. That would make it like giving the power button a twist on the old IIci.

> I notice that there is no sound in. There is a solder over spot for a
> microphone on the back end of the board.

There's no hole in the rear I/O gasket for the mic. jack. That shouldn't be a big challenge for you, but it is an issue.

> J-13 is a small socket marked "AUX". Is this used for anything ? I notice it
> is the same size as a DOS card cable.

Is this over near the power supply end of the board? If so, it's probably the sound input for the CDROM. I'm doing this from memory, so can't look at a board to check.

BTW, Upgrade Stuff (I think) has the Apollo board (Serial and ethernet) for $20. Darn, I don't have the URL handy, but one of the people with the company hangs in the SuperMac e-mail list, so if you join, post a query for it there. Or do a Google search.

BTW, the J700 case and the S900 case are actually the same model of case. They are both the ATCX Convertible from Palo Alto Products. Umax bought their cases from them and (I guess) got a custom Bezel made. I say I guess, because it may be that the Umax bezel is also standard except for the silk screening, since Palo Alto Products says on their site, that bezels are available with holes for sound ports. The ATCX convertible can be converted between desktop and tower form by trading out three components: the front bezel, the bottom (on tower, but left side on DT) and the right side (on tower, but bottom on DT). This apparently helps with inventory control for manufacturers who need to be able to offer both cases.

Dell used the same case in some of their Dimension models and Micron has also used this case. Misty Valley Computers (don't have the URL handy at the moment) sells parts for the Palo Alto Products cases--you can't get them direct from PAP.

You mentioned doing a Digikey order for the header strip to install a jumper at J38. I believe that I got some header strips from JDR Electronics a while back (www.jdr.com) (http://www.jdr.com)). The advantage of JDR is that they don't have a minimum order. On the other hand, if you end up needing PCI sockets and a stereo mini-jack, you may need to do a Digi-Key order anyway.

Going way back. The DEC 21052AB is the PCI-PCI Bridge chip. It is present on both the J700 and S900. It is capable of supporting four down stream PCI slots, even though it only supports 2 on the J700.

The ROM version in the S900 is the same as the 7500, which causes me to suspect that it is the same for the 7500, 8500, 9500, S900, J700, PTP, PW and Genesis. Apple did something similar with the 6100-8100, though there were more variations there. Anyway, the Apple part number on the four ROM chips are all the same between the S900 and 7500.

The Apple Profiler probably sees the S900 as an 8500 because it only detects one Bandit chip.

The Bandit chip can support up to four PCI slots, but one of those "slots" is used up by the Curio chip (SCSI/serial/ethernet controller), the Mesh SCSI controller (internal SCSI controller), and the ADB controller. Those items occupy one PCI slot on the Bandit controller.

Interestingly, in the 9500 class machines (except the Umax, and the PowerWave) there is a second Bandit chip which is only driving three PCI slots and has no peripherals occupying the fourth slot. So, in theory, Apple could easily have made the 9500 a seven slot machine with four PCI slots on the second Bandit chip. Now that would be an interesting hack--build a contraption to tap that fourth unused PCI slot on the second Bandit controller in 9500 class machines.


[This message has been edited by jeff walther (edited 15 December 2000).]

magician
12-15-2000, 07:17 PM
damn, jeff.

I bow in your general direction.

http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Louie
12-15-2000, 07:39 PM
This may spawn a whole school of mad scientists!

magician
12-15-2000, 08:27 PM
the expertise displayed on this forum is sick!

http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

MadDog
12-15-2000, 11:26 PM
Hi, Kaye told me there was a mad scientist on the loose over here...
These have mostly been answered, but I'll hit them again anyway.

---
Woof ! Woof ! They call me MAD !
---

The above two connect to cables that connect to the Venus sound board, which, as Kaye pointed out, NewSell has for 1 DM. I can't recommend them as a source at the moment, but hopefully that will all work out. That's a great price for the Venus, because the two stereo audio jacks alone are about $2 each, so building your own board would cost considerably more (until you consider shipping from Germany). The Venus board is really simple. It's just two stereo mini-jacks with about nine 2.2 nF surface mount caps on it. Of course, the microphone jack is Apple's funky
powered jack for their mic.

---
I was thinking it might be easier to take a mic socket from a dead motherboard I have and transplanting it onto the J700. Since I have to mill out the cover piece on the backplane on the case, anyway, it doesnt add much trouble.
All mic sockets from Apple are the same, right ?
---

> What is the 2 pin jumper J-30 ("SERVER" near the bottom of the board) for ?

I've been told that this causes the machine to boot back up after a power outage. I've never tried it myself. That would make it like giving the power button a twist on the old IIci.

---
That is interesting.
---

> I notice that there is no sound in. There is a solder over spot for a
> microphone on the back end of the board.

There's no hole in the rear I/O gasket for the mic. jack. That shouldn't be a big challenge for you, but it is an issue.

---
I just wonder if all mic sockets are the same.
----

> J-13 is a small socket marked "AUX". Is this used for anything ? I notice it
> is the same size as a DOS card cable.

Is this over near the power supply end of the board? If so, it's probably the sound input for the CDROM. I'm doing this from memory, so can't look at a board to check.

---
This is the small brown socket trailing PCI slot A. It is the correct overall dimensions as the DAV slot used in the PowerCurve/Center and 72/7500 type machines that can host the cable from an Apple DOS card. Although, it does not have the internal division that breaks up the ~26 pins into 2 groups like the DAV slot.
---

BTW, Upgrade Stuff (I think) has the Apollo board (Serial and ethernet) for $20. Darn, I don't have the URL handy, but one of the people with the company hangs in the SuperMac e-mail list, so if you join, post a query for it there. Or do a Google search.

---
Upgradestuff was selling "kits" consisting of J700 mobo, Apollo, floppy and 200 MHz CPU for $49.00. When I saw that, I was consumed by the though of putting one together and adding 2 PIC slots. Snagged one set for $63 total. Not bad. Will post on the supermac list ASAP.
---

BTW, the J700 case and the S900 case are actually the same model of case. They are both the ATCX Convertible from Palo Alto Products. Umax bought their cases from them and (I guess) got a custom Bezel made. I say I guess, because it may be that the Umax bezel is also standard except for the silk screening, since Palo

---
After some research, I picked up a S900 powersupply from Smalldog and got a Enlight 7237 case (I can use the Psupply for one of my powercurve towerings).
So far, everything seems to fit except for the port cover on the back which I know I am going to have to mod or make.
---

You mentioned doing a Digikey order for the header strip to install a jumper at J38. I believe that I got some header strips from JDR Electronics a while back (www.jdr.com) (http://www.jdr.com)). The advantage of JDR is that they don't have a minimum order. On the other hand, if you end up needing PCI sockets and a stereo mini-jack, you may need to do a Digi-Key order anyway.

---
I have been looking up and down for PCI sockets so I can add 2 of them to the J700.
No luck at ALL. I mean, NONE. No one has them or will sell to me.
I am going to have to remove 2 slots from a dead PC (going to get ugly, 120 pins is a tough job) and a 2 pin jumper if I can find one.
---

The Bandit chip can support up to four PCI slots, but one of those "slots" is used up by the Curio chip (SCSI/serial/ethernet controller), the Mesh SCSI controller (internal SCSI controller), and the ADB controller. Those items occupy one PCI slot on the Bandit controller.

---
I still have 6 free PCI slots, right ? Its just that certain cards are picky about which slots to go in ?
---


Thanks for all the info Jeff. Its guys like you, who keep allowing people like me to do all sorts of crazyness ! http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/jollyroger.gif

Mad Dog

kaye
12-16-2000, 12:45 PM
All Apple microphones are not the same. The S900 uses the Plaintalk Mic here http://www.sur-tech.com/cgi/page?item,m9060z-a which you can see that the jack has three connections, L, R, and power, but some old pre-PowerMacs used an Apple Standard Macintosh Microphone with a two connection jack, L and R channels as I recall, no power. My Centris 650 has just such a mic.

All PowerMacs, even NuBus, use the Plaintalk. k

jeff walther
12-16-2000, 02:08 PM
> This is the small brown socket trailing PCI slot A. It is the correct overall
> dimensions as the DAV slot used in the PowerCurve/Center and 72/7500 type
> machines that can host the cable from an Apple DOS card. Although, it does not
> have the internal division that breaks up the ~26 pins into 2 groups like the > DAV slot.

I answered this on the SuperMac list, but for those here, he means the extension to PCI slot A which handles the extra connector tab on E100 SCSI/ethernet card.

BTW, try Digi-Key part number S06019-ND for your PCI socket. I'm not positive that's the one you want, but Digi-Key's web site takes you to a PDF of the whole catalog page when you click on the item number in the search results. If that's not the exact item you need, all the other PCI connectors are on the same page--pg. 122 of the July-Sep. catalog. Of course, those page numbers may not match up to the on-line catalog so search on the part number. Also, when in doubt, give Digi-Key a call on the (gasp) phone. They have techs, to whom the sales people will connect you who are usually very helpful about spec questions. Digi-Key is top notch in their sales and support department.

Interestingly, the facing page has NuBus connectors, in case Kaye or I ever want to try to add those last two NuBus slots to our Power 120s. :-)

Try part number WM4000-ND or WM2722-ND for the header strips.


[This message has been edited by jeff walther (edited 16 December 2000).]

MadDog
12-16-2000, 04:10 PM
>All Apple microphones are not the same.

Well, RAT-FARTS ! Looks like I now have to find a junked Apple powermac.
I need more parts !

IGOR ! Bring me more PARTS !

Mad DOg

MadDog
12-16-2000, 05:00 PM
>BTW, try Digi-Key part number S06019-ND for your PCI socket.

Pretty sure thats not it.

I did another search , using different terms, and I think I found the correct one:

1-145154-2

But guess what.. none in stock..

I am just going to have to call them and get a tech and see if he knows for sure.

I forgot that I had a Digikey catalog here, and looking through it, I found AGP slot edge... but no (&^(%(^&)*& PCI !!!!

There are several types of sockets, I prefer the same type on the J700, straight through plastic pole, instead of the metal lock in units.

I know Burndy/FCI sells them too, but no luck there either (CEE2X60S).

This is nuts. PCI slot edge connecters. Companies use 8,000,000,000,000 a day making computers, and I cant find frigging ONE !

Mad Dog

Louie
12-16-2000, 11:14 PM
The first machine that used the PlainTalk Mic was the Quadra 605. Check the old Apple Specs -1998 on their website. That says which models used PlainTalk.

magician
12-17-2000, 04:46 AM
might be easier to use a heat gun and scavenge one off a busted logic board.

http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

MadDog
12-17-2000, 09:53 PM
Look for plaintalk mics on applespec.

Good idea. Will scavenge as necessary !

Mad Dog

jeff walther
12-18-2000, 04:36 PM
If worse comes to worse, see if you can pick up a cheap 7200/75 motherboard on Ebay or in the News Groups. People have been upgrading 7200s to 7500s over the years, so there should be a supply of useless 7200 motherboards floating around. The 75 MHz was the slowest (and so cheapest) of the 7200s.

A 7200 motherboard would have three PCI connectors and a PlainTalk microphone jack. It will also have a spare Curio chip (hope you never need that). I don't think the 7200 uses the Bandit, but I don't remember--maybe it does. I know the memory controller is different from the other PCI machines of its era.

Personally, when I want to buy an odd item I like to try the news groups, on the theory that there may be a bunch of them out there in people's closets, that they never thought about actively selling. So I post something like:
Subject: WTB: 7200 MB (any speed), non-working OK, $25

Then describe in more detail what I want, who pays shipping, etc in the body. I would add (in this case) must have pristine PCI sockets and microphone jack. I've nearly always gotten what I wanted in a week or two that way. I figure, people read the add, think, "Oh, yeah, I've got one of those gathering dust in the closet. Hey, I could get some beer money for that." And they sell it to me.

Good news groups for this are comp.sys.mac.wanted and the misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.xxxx heirarchy.

Oops, looks like the 7200 may have some kind of funky stacked Mic/speaker jack. Double check that before taking my advice.



[This message has been edited by jeff walther (edited 18 December 2000).]

MadDog
12-18-2000, 09:34 PM
A 7200 motherboard would have three PCI connectors and a PlainTalk microphone jack. It will also have a spare Curio chip (hope you never need that). I don't

----
Whats the Curio for ? Although I may sound like a hardware hackin' solder-gun wearin' bad boy, most SMT stuff is beyond me. I can do simple items that arent too crowded, like PCI slots (theory), CPU oscillators and such. I bet the Curio is one of those small square ICs with a bazillion pins ?
----

Personally, when I want to buy an odd item I like to try the news groups, on the theory that there may be a bunch of them out there in people's closets, that they never thought about actively selling. So I post something like: Subject: WTB: 7200 MB (any speed), non-working OK, $25

----
IMHO, stuff on the newsgroups is always too pricey. Ebay rules !
----

Oops, looks like the 7200 may have some kind of funky stacked Mic/speaker jack. Double check that before taking my advice.

----
Yup, I have a 7200/90 and you are right. Too bad, it was a great idea.
I emailed macmilt (guy on ebay) if he had any dead 660AV, 840AV or pmac boards for scrounging. I have a local friend at an institution looking for dead PC motherboards (how fitting, using PCI slots taken from a PC...[sinister laugh])

Damn, I called Digikey and the tech guy claimes they dont sell PCI slot edges at all.... ()*&)(*&)(*&!!!!!!!!!!

GIVE ME A BREAK !

I dont want to desolder PCI slots, but I may have no choice at all.

Mad Dog

MadDog
12-22-2000, 04:17 PM
OK, I put an order into Digikey. As far as I can tell from the drawings

1-145154-2
145154-4
145154-8

are all the same (PCI slot edge connecters). I need to print the spec sheets out all high res to be sure.

Hopefully either one will work.

I did a little practive on a PDS slot on a dead Centris 610 board, and let me tell you, if I have to desolder PCI slots, its gonna get UGLY ! I forgot to get some flux remover, too.

Ug.

Just as an interesting note, my 23 watt iron does good desoldering, but the 15 watt is pretty useless for desoldering.

Anyone got a dead motherboard that has a plaintalk mic jack on it ?

Mad Dog

MadDog
12-28-2000, 04:58 PM
OK, I de-soldered the two open slots, opening the holes up for when the connectors arrive. After a bit of flux-remover, the board still looks cherry.

and..... it boots ! So I didnt screw it up after all ! Lucky me !

Soon, soon..... heh heh heh.....

Im also considering doing some alterations to the case. That virtualhideout.net is pretty way out there...

Mad Dog

magician
12-28-2000, 11:41 PM
nice work!

http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

MadDog
12-29-2000, 11:48 AM
I have been taking pics of all the stuff I have done and plan on getting it on a web page asap.

The de-soldering wasnt bad at all, after a little practice. Its not something I would recommend to someone who hasnt done any solder work, but to someone who has, it wasnt bad at all.

Keep your fingers crossed.....

Mad Dog

kaye
12-29-2000, 06:46 PM
Yes, nice work. k

MadDog
12-29-2000, 08:48 PM
OK, I have put up my first attempt at web page design:

members.home.net/gionpeters/HHHH.html

Tell me what you think. More will be added as I can.

thanks,

Mad Dog

magician
12-29-2000, 11:11 PM
here's a clickable URL:

http://www.members.home.net/gionpeters/J700.html

can't wait to see if this thing actually works!

http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

MadDog
12-30-2000, 12:35 AM
Check out the
www.members.home.net/gionpeters/ (http://www.members.home.net/gionpeters/)

(soon I will figure out how to make this clickable)

links too, I have done some Duo stuff and will add the other items soon.

http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/jollyroger.gif


Mad Dog

MadDog
12-30-2000, 04:30 PM
OK ! I got the parts from Digikey. If anyone wants to help me out (I dont now if I can restrain myself for long), go to:
www.digikey.com (http://www.digikey.com)

and download the reference sheets (there are 2 for each part) for part #s:

1-145154-2 (out of stock)
145154-4 (I have 3 of these)
145154-8 (I have 3 of these)

(ok, they are the same sheet, so you only have to download one set)

Now, as far as I can tell _all_ these parts are absolutely identical in form, shape and purpose (yes, they fit a PCI card). The only difference I can spot on the items are a slightly different AMP part #.

If you look on the spec sheets, there is a small table (lower right side of the first page of each of the spec sheets) that lists the different part #s, and the parts I have only differ in the "W" column.

Now, look to the left of the table at one of the drawings of the socket (the second from the top). On the left side of the drawing (you may have to zoom in) there is a "W" value which looks to be the length of the pins, past the plastic body.

An inspection of the 2 types of parts I have indeed shows that the length of the pins is slightly different.

M. Isobe recommended AMP part # 11299-4, which after inspection shows not to have the "key" at position 11 (the divider ?) and is plated with Gold 10.

The part I chose (145154-4 or 145154-8) has the key and is plated with a thicker coating of gold (30). Isobes part has tin-lead over nickel on the solder tails while the one I chose has tin-lead.

(Whew)

So, my question IS, can anyone think of a reason why I shouldn't solder away ?

Mad Dog

kaye
12-30-2000, 05:43 PM
MD,

You lost me. How come you chose not to get the part M. Isobe recommended, AMP part # 11299-4? Not available? k

MadDog
12-30-2000, 06:37 PM
Cant find anyone who sells it. Tycho (the link that Isobe pointed out) doesnt sell to the public, and I cant find any of thier resellers who had it (and the one I did find wanted a 20,000 minimum order).

I think I have the correct part; there may in fact be more than one correct part.
Some computers have AMP connectors, some have Burndy (FMI - same boat as the Isobe part - cant get 'em) connectors.

...resisting...urge..to solder...cant ...hold out ....much ...longer....

Mad Dog

Dogstarman
12-30-2000, 07:32 PM
I have been following along here silently, as most of these mods are out of my league, but I gotta admit...you got me interested. I can't come up with a good reason to hold back from soldering. This here is the culmination of weeks of research and waiting. There are other J700 boards out there to be had if things go horribly awry. I can't see how they could, though. Good luck!!!!

MadDog
12-30-2000, 09:22 PM
----
I have been following along here silently, as most of these mods are out of my league, but I gotta admit...you got me interested. I can't come up with a good reason to hold back from soldering. This here is the culmination of weeks of research and waiting. There are other J700 boards out there to be had if things go horribly awry. I can't see how they could, though. Good luck!!!!
----

ug...urge.. to ...solder...rising !

I figure if no one can come up with a good eason I will do it tomorrow. Too late tonight.

Mad Dog

MadDog
12-31-2000, 07:36 PM
IT WORKS ! IT WORKS ! IT WORKS !
IT WORKS ! IT WORKS ! IT WORKS !
IT WORKS ! IT WORKS ! IT WORKS !
IT WORKS ! IT WORKS ! IT WORKS !

I soldered in the 2 slots and I was able to use the video card in either slot.

Who is your hardware-hacking-soldergun-totin-out-of-his-mind-big-daddy ?

ME ! Tell it to me ! Let me hear it !

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !

If you want a blow-by-blow view of what I did:
http://members.home.net/gionpeters/J700.html


http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/jollyroger.gif http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/jollyroger.gif


http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


Thanks to everyone for the support !


Mad Dog

kaye
12-31-2000, 08:03 PM
MadDog

You are the hardware-hacking-soldergun-totin-out-of-his-mind-biggest-daddy of them all. http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif k

magician
12-31-2000, 10:17 PM
yeah!

http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

MadDog
12-31-2000, 11:09 PM
Can anyone think of any ways I can stress-test the 2 new slots ? Unfortunately I dont have any SCSI cards, the ony cards I have are a Voodoo3 and a Rage 128.

Maybe a re-looping set of MacBench video tests ?

If you havnt checked out my webpage, let me ask this:

Although the computer identifies as a 9500/9600 under TattleTech, all the cards that have been in Slot D,E, or F identify as being in Slot C (under TattleTech).

Is this normal ? (because there is only 1 bandit and 1 DEC bridge ?)

Mad Dog

kaye
01-01-2001, 01:32 AM
If I recall correctly, they identify as slot C because of the DEC bridge. I have never had a video card, V5 or ProFormance3+ 32MB stress the system to the point of freeze in MB5. A SCSI card such as the E100, JackHammer, or BlueNote with a fast HD is all I can think of that would coexist in one of those new slots and stress. k

[This message has been edited by kaye (edited 01 January 2001).]

MadDog
01-01-2001, 10:24 AM
Well then, anyone want to donate an E100/Jackhammer + drives and cables to a good cause ?

If not, I think I will have to assume TOTAL VICTORY !

Muhahahahahahaha !

http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/jollyroger.gif


Mad Dog

kaye
01-01-2001, 11:21 AM
Checked my S900 this morning with Apple System Profiler in OS8.6 and, yes, it shows slot C "pci card" as "pci bridge". And it does not show PCI slots D, E, F. So ASP and I'm sure TattleTech are confused by the DEC bridge. One interesting thing, I have the V5 in slot B, and ASP shows slot B twice, I guess once for each processor on the V5. k

Dogstarman
01-01-2001, 01:40 PM
Holy cow!!!! Wowsers!!!! I am truly amazed. Hell of a job!!!!!!! Almost makes me think you got yourself a little market worked out for yourself, MD. I kinda want to get a board and try it myself. Welcome to the new year. What a way to ring it in!!!

MadDog
01-01-2001, 02:48 PM
If people really trust me I could try some more boards. I am talking to another guy who claims to have 15 J700 boards on hand.
www.upgradestuff (http://www.upgradestuff) may still be selling J700 kits, too.

Now I have to try and get it in my Enlight case, but *&^&^%*& (*_)(*_
PRAM battery holder is about 1 cm too far forward so I am going to have to do some case work...(*&)(*&)*( %$^%$#^%(87^)&*)(*&( !!!!!! !!

Seriously, if people do trust me I can try again. I have enough PCI sockets oh hand to do 1-2 more boards, but I can always get more from digikey.

Lets see... if you can still get the "kit" from upgradestuff:

kit (mobo, CPU, floppy, apollo) $49 + shipping
powersupply (www.smalldog (http://www.smalldog)) $39 + shipping
case ~$50 + shipping
2x PCI sockets $6 + shipping

comes to ~$144 or so (+ shipping). Not too bad for a 6 slot bare machine, although finding a case that is perfect may be trouble.


http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/jollyroger.gif

Mad Dog

Dogstarman
01-01-2001, 10:39 PM
I will buy a Mad Scientist limited-run milennium-edition authentic-signatured modded J700 board from you if you happen to run into another board and want to proceed. I understand all about the "No warranty is expressed or implied" end of the deal. I am just plain dumbfounded and always need another 6-slot Mac running in my life. Way to go!!!

Oh..one last thing. The "kit" is no longer for sale, but they still have the mobo-only for $69 and the Apollo for $19. Still a hell of a deal.

[This message has been edited by Dogstarman (edited 01 January 2001).]

MadDog
01-02-2001, 08:29 PM
I will buy a Mad Scientist limited-run milennium-edition authentic-signatured modded J700 board from you if you happen to run into another board and want to proceed. I understand all about the "No warranty is expressed or implied" end of the deal.

---
Sure, I can give it a whirl. Let me ask around and see if I can find a cheaper J700 board. Do you want me to buy one and do it or do you want to send me one ?
---

I am just plain dumbfounded and always need another 6-slot Mac running in my life. Way to go!!!

---
Thats it, thats it ! Feed the madness !

Anybody else have the urge ?

Mad Dog

Dogstarman
01-02-2001, 08:42 PM
Well...it would be a little more sensible (IMHO) for you to get the board, if you can...saves a little on shipping. Hopefully some others'll come along and feed the insanity.

mactheripper
01-02-2001, 11:20 PM
Wow!!!! I feel this insane sense of familial pride. That is the most ridiculous bit of hardware hacking I have witnessed (virtually, of course).
Congratulations, MD. You http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/kickass.gif

MadDog
01-03-2001, 08:26 PM
Well, lets be honest here. As much as I have a swelled ego at the moment, all I did was a little bit of soldering. De-soldering the holes and adding PCI connecters was relatively easy (the hard part was finding the connectors).

But I STILL KICK ASS ANYWAY ! WAHOO !


http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/jollyroger.gif


Mad Dog

MadDog
01-03-2001, 08:30 PM
I forgot to add.... since I did this sucessfully, you would be scared to hear what I am thinking. Now I am thinking... "if I had a real kick-ass soldering rig, I _might_ be able to do serious SMT stuff...hhmmm..."

Mad "thinking of the possibilities" Dog

Dogstarman
01-03-2001, 08:53 PM
Well, sure. But think of it in all its simplicity. You took a known-good item and modified it entirely on an off chance, some insanity and hopefulness.

MadDog
01-06-2001, 04:40 PM
Dogstarmad, I havnt forgotten baout you. I am still trying get ahold of the guy who has a stash of J700 motherboards squirreled away...

Mad Dog

Dogstarman
01-06-2001, 04:45 PM
Hey, no prollem. I am currently doing the mobo swap turning my 7200 into a 7600, so take your time. Email me if you would rather keep the forum clean of "unforseen manufacturing delays in the dungeon of torture, mayhem and insanity". Thanks a zillion, MD.

magician
01-07-2001, 12:42 AM
DogSM, I like reading about dundgeons, torture, mayhem and insanity.

http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif



[This message has been edited by magician (edited 07 January 2001).]

Dogstarman
01-07-2001, 12:14 PM
So in the darkest dungeon of turture and delight, did the Mad one ever get that PlainTalk jack installed and working?

MadDog
01-07-2001, 04:10 PM
While I was adding the PCI slots I also added the J38 jumper.

Unfortunately, I cant find a spare plaintalk jack lying around. I _think_ I need one that says "8 WWWW" or something like that on the top of the unit. I have one on a Q840 AV that is "7 WWWW" but I might as well make sure I have the correct part first.

If I can find one, it should be a simple job to do.

At the moment, I have the J700 frankenstein in a Enlight 3273 case (although I had to do a bit of ..."altering". I am trying to dream up a satisfactory paint scheme for the case (ah...the possibilities...) before I go too much further (although I did boot it again and so forth)

I also need to figure out a way to support the CPU card.

I am _still_ waiting for Woody to respond to my emails about the J700 boards. Dammit ! This is the new millenia.. I hate it when people dont answer thier email for a week at a time ! NOW, NOW, NOW ! (I am getting impatient in my old age).

Mad Dog

PS: In other "dungeon" news, I am slowly assembling another project, "44 Special" - a real blast from the past.
I am also trying to find some silicone liquid so I can try my hand at molding small plastic parts for my franken-duos.

jeff walther
01-09-2001, 11:08 AM
I just checked back in after reading XLR8yourmac.com. Congratulations MD. Way to go!

MadDog
01-09-2001, 09:45 PM
Famous, Famous, Famous !

Of course, I get on the page the same day all the new Apple hardware comes out. Think anyone will notice little old me ? Harumph !

Well, I shall take what fleeting fame I can gather.

Now if I could only gather some J700 motherboards ! What happened to my source !

..and some plaintalk mic jacks too.....

Mad Dog

MadDog
01-13-2001, 05:25 PM
Can anyone send me a pic of a J700 motherboard with a closeup on the spot where the 2 PCI slots are soldered over ? I lost the pic I was going to use on the motherboard.

thanks,

Mad Dog

Dogstarman
01-13-2001, 05:29 PM
Do you mean you need a pic of the mobo other than the ones on your site? I know I don't have one....

kaye
01-13-2001, 07:24 PM
MD,

You want me to resend those mobo pics I sent you before? I got DSL now. http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif k

MadDog
01-13-2001, 09:29 PM
I need a J700 pic, with a closeup on the soldered over spots so I can show what it looks like before I get to work. Not a big deal, but if anyone has one handy.
I lost my pics of the board before I added the slots (curses !).

thanks,

Mad Dog


PS: still no word from my source. Swine !

MadDog
01-30-2001, 10:06 PM
I just got a good look at a S900 case, and I swear, it looks identical to a Micron Millenium XKU tower case (except for the front panel).

Just in case anyone is looking for a case to use for a J700 mobo.

Mad Dog


http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/jollyroger.gif

jeff walther
01-31-2001, 12:07 PM
It is the same case. Micron and Dell have each used the Palo Alto ATCX Convertible case on several models over the years.

tronax
02-12-2001, 02:48 PM
www.poweron.com (http://www.poweron.com) has apollos.
('lots of them', they say.)

MadDog
02-12-2001, 09:40 PM
Where did you find them onthe site ? Maybe I am dense, but I cant find them...

thanks,

Mad Dog


http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/jollyroger.gif

tronax
02-18-2001, 11:06 PM
nowhere. I e-mailed them.

MadDog
02-27-2001, 08:00 PM
DSM, see your email from me about the J700.

Mad Dog


http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/jollyroger.gif

Dogstarman
02-27-2001, 08:17 PM
MD,

See your email from me about the J700 http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MadDog
03-11-2001, 09:42 AM
Dogstarman, where are you ?

Mad Dog


http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/jollyroger.gif

Dogstarman
03-11-2001, 11:19 AM
MD,
Recovering from some family matters. Better now....been "out of touch" for a little while, but I am trying to get this thing going again. Sent Dennis an email. We'll see what happens. I found someone local to me that might have a few J700's. So I got that on the burner now, too. I will keep you posted.

MadDog
03-24-2001, 02:28 PM
DSM, I got the J700 and after testing to make sure its good to go, will add the PCI slots.....

Mad Dog

http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/jollyroger.gif

Dogstarman
03-24-2001, 04:10 PM
Good news, indeed. Did PowerOn have a bunch of Apollos? I will email them and see what the scoop is.

MadDog
03-24-2001, 05:37 PM
They never got back to me about the apollos, but the J700 came with one.

Mad Dog

http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/jollyroger.gif

trag
03-29-2001, 07:10 PM
Dogstarman, did Power On have a supply of Apollos? I don't have an immediate need for one, but it's nice to know. Mad Dog, did you ever find a source for some J700 boards?

MadDog
03-29-2001, 09:55 PM
The only guy who claimed to have a supply never answered my email after a while. Damn. I found a J700 and Apollo by asking around. Im doing the mod on this one for DSM. Occasionallly an apollo comes on ebay.

Mad Dog


http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/jollyroger.gif

MadDog
04-01-2001, 07:00 PM
It is done.

Another JS800 (J700+S900=JS800) rises from my operating table.

IIITTT.....LIIIVVVEESSSSS !

Dogstarman, you still interested in a JS800 and apollo ?

Mad Dog


http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/jollyroger.gif

Dogstarman
04-01-2001, 07:44 PM
Without a doubt. Email me with the cost including shipping and I will get a MO or PayPal or whatever you like out to you within 24 hours. A big congrats to you, MD! YEEEE-HAWW!!!!! You are the man.....I am going to get back pains with all ths bowing going on! http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by Dogstarman (edited 01 April 2001).]

Dogstarman
04-02-2001, 05:03 PM
Just a quick question....I have a few ( more than a few http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) power supplies lying around from various machines. Any chance that one will work/hack-to-work with the JS800? I have a few Quadra units....a 75/7600...a 7300...2 86/9600. And an ATX.

trag
04-03-2001, 11:21 AM
I don't think the Quadra units can be made to work, because I don't believe that they supply 3.3V on any of their lines, and the S900 needs the 3.3V supply. However, any of the other power supplies should be doable. It's mainly just a matter of matching up the wires voltage for voltage.

The trickiest part is the power on circuitry. I suspect that the S900 and the Apple x500 machines use the same scheme there--5V to a certain wire means power on. However the ATX uses GND to a certain wire means power on. So I would use a two tier conversion for S900 to ATX.

First figure out how the x500 power supply matches up to the S900. Then use the information on XLR8yourmac.com about adapting an ATX power supply to x500 machines and go through that to the S900 using the x500 to S900 conversion you would have already developed.

Dogstarman
04-03-2001, 05:18 PM
I almost have the XLR8YrMac conversion how-to memorized!!! I was just wondering if anyone out there had a schematic for a Mac-S900 conversion. I have no problem sitting down with the electronics and figuring it out. But with 2 jobs and all.....well, I would rather spend my time doing the actual upgrading and transplanting at this point. Enough of me whining. Thanks for the direction, Trag!

OK, one more thing. I need a quick answer to a question: What are the dimensions for the JS800 board? I am gathering materials to build a case and need to get the dimensions to my friend by tomorrow AM so I can get the stuff from him. Otherwise, I have to wait til he gets back from vacation (2 weeks) or pay the retail price plus cut fees!!!! Thanks in advance. It's the simplest things that are the hardest to find online. http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Dogstarman (edited 03 April 2001).]

trag
04-03-2001, 06:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I have no problem sitting down with the electronics and figuring it out. But with 2 jobs and all.....well, I would rather spend my time doing the actual upgrading and transplanting at this point. Enough of me whining. Thanks for the direction, Trag!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know the feeling. I started my extra Bandit project thinking, if someone will just give me a Bandit pinout I can do this. After posting to every news group and forum that might possibly help I finally had to figure out a way to jazz out the pinout myself. So I do that and discover, hey I need a Hammerhead and Grand Central pinout. Back to the forums. No help. So now I need to figure those out.

I really just want to start soldering. Not spend another three weeks tracing pins. So I do sympathize.

Ultimately, I'll need the Bandit pinout, Grand Central pinout, Hammerhead pinout and Secondary CPU slot pinout.

Plus, I got sidetracked by the ANS CPU to Mac CPU conversion idea. So now I need a Primary CPU slot pinout as well.

BTW, has anyone seen one of these cases: http://www.yeongyang.com/products/yy0320-0330.htm ? That link is to the manufacturer. I haven't seen the case at a retail outlet with a price anywhere. The next model down is here: http://www.directron.com/yy0221bk.html

The description (for the yy0221) for drive bays under Features is wrong. There are six exposed 5.25" bays, two exposed 3.5" bays and something like seven, but maybe really eight internal 3.5" bays.

Dogstarman
04-03-2001, 06:27 PM
Haven't seen the cases. I have drooled over the cases here, though. The link has been posted before, but I still like some of the things they do.
http://www.servercase.com/

They have some YeongYang cases. And some ridiculous items, as well. And the one model is 20-some bucks cheaper here.

Dogstarman
04-03-2001, 08:53 PM
Aww, man. I hope this wasn't an April joke......you alive MD? Or did the JS800 get a little miffed that you gave it a twin sibling and add some slots to you?

MadDog
04-04-2001, 08:47 PM
DSM, as far as I know you have to buy the AT/ATX powersupply. www.smalldog.com (http://www.smalldog.com) should still have 100+ of them for ~$35, new.

As for a case, see my website for some details about my Enlight conversion. I think someone else uised a Palo Alto case to fit the motherboard. The mobo is bigger than standrad ATX so you might have to do some altering.


Mad Dog


http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/jollyroger.gif

MadDog
04-04-2001, 08:49 PM
No jokes here. As for bowing to me.. lets face it, Jeff has it all over me when it comes to hardcore hacking ! Im NOT WORTHY !

Mad Dog


http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/jollyroger.gif

trag
04-05-2001, 10:13 AM
Ha, MadDog. At least you are doing some hacking. I'll still be trying to figure out which pin to connect where on the hack I'm trying to do when you've finished your next five new hacks.

Face it. We're all wonderful. :-)

trag
04-05-2001, 10:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>As for a case, see my website for some details about my Enlight conversion. I think someone else uised a Palo Alto case to fit the motherboard. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Umax used the Palo Alto ATCX Convertible case for their S900 and J700. So the Palo Alto case is the original equipment.

Ignoring the power supply (since, as MadDog says they're available at Small Dog) the two big challenges in putting a S900/J700 in a non-stock case are the ATX I/O Gasket and the sound ports. If you've got a Venus board, then the sound ports aren't a problem, except where to mount them. The I/O Gasket can be dealt with using a blank ATX I/O Gasket and a dremel.

I found a source of I/O gaskets that were made for the Storm Surge board but they only sell to resellers. I've got them thinking that I am one and I bought ten. I'm trying to decide if I should buy the rest of their stock. The problem is, that if I get my hack working, I'm thinking I might need as many as 40 or 50 of the gaskets. If I don't get it working, I don't want to have wasted money on any. In the meantime, I'm afraid that the gaskets might disappear for one reason or another--someone else might find and buy them, they might throw them away, because they haven't sold one in three years other than to me, etc.

magician
04-05-2001, 10:54 PM
those YY enclosures are SWEET.

trag....40 units?

damn!

Louie
04-06-2001, 12:54 AM
Will be called the SuperTrag?

trag
04-06-2001, 11:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>trag....40 units? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, it's all pie in the sky for now. But my thought is that if there is still a big demand for six slot Macs even though they are four years old, if I can build an 18 - 20 slot Mac where 14 - 16 of the slots are real Bandit slots and not bridged, then there'd probably be some demand for that as well, at least this year.

I figure I could probably put out about two units a week (day job, you know) but that could be as low as 1 or as high as 4 depending on how much work it really takes. So, if there really would be a demand for such a unit, I figure I could produce in the neighborhood of 40 - 50 of them before they're too obsolete for anyone to care anymore.

But what's your opinion? If this works, what I'll design is a circuit board which plugs into the secondary CPU slot on the S900. That gets me most of the bus connections without any fancy soldering hacks. I'll put three Bandits on the circuit board. I've already demonstrated that I can desolder and resolder those (picked up several 7200 boards to practice on). Each Bandit will be hooked up to a 50 or 68 pin ribbon cable connector.

At the other end, I'll have four or five PCI slots per Bandit on their own circuit board and corresponding 50 or 68 pin ribbon cables to carry the PCI signals. There'll be a couple of other chips on this board, to keep the Bandit board simpler and minimize the signals on that cable. (I've confirmed that the Bandit controls six devices in the ANS.)

I'll install the PCI slot board(s) on the left (drive) side of a cube case with a 14 slot backplane installed in the rear plate (premade backplane slot panel is $10 at Addtronics). The cables from the PCI slot boards will run to the Bandit board.

Ultimately, one ends up with a cube case with an S900 board in the normal ATX position. A 14 slot backplane of PCI slots on the drive side. A Bandit controller card in the secondary CPU slot cabled to the PCI backplane(s). Two power supplies: one normal S900 and one ATX. The ATX powers the PCI backplane, but soft powers on with the S900 power supply. The YY-0330 should leave room for all the front drive bays, so that would give 8 5.25" bays and 8 3.5" bays. I'd put the power supplies above the S900 board and above the PCI backplane.

There would still be some wires I'd have to solder in from the Hammerhead and GC chips to plugs on the Bandit Controller card, so it would require a slightly modified S900 board. This isn't user installable.

Figuring the cost of the myriad of parts (including the bare bones S900) and estimating between 10 - 20 hours of my time per unit, I'd price it somewhere around $1500 - $2000 each for a full unit with 18 - 20 PCI slots. That's a unit without additional RAM, CPU card or video card and that estimate was based on the YY-0221 case, before I noticed that there probably isn't any room for power supplies in it after my modification. So I'll need to use the YY-0330 case and I don't have pricing on it. So what do you think? Would there be any market for such a monster?

But as I said in the first sentence, it's all pie in the sky for now. But I like to design while I'm walking and jogging. I'm still facing at least one obstacle that may be insurmountable. I'll know more after I figure pinouts on the Hammerhead and GC in the next week or two.

If I get the hack working, then I don't mind buying the I/O gaskets up front to have them. But if I don't get it working, then I may as well tell PowerOn where to find them or something. But if I tell PowerOn now, they might buy them all, and then I wouldn't be able to get any when/if I need them.

[This message has been edited by trag (edited 06 April 2001).]

MadDog
04-06-2001, 01:55 PM
Not to be a downer, trag, but how are you going to power that many PCI cards ? Doesnt power for the cards come through the slot connector, and hence from the power supply ? The _one_ power supply ? Unless you can come up with a 10000 Watt power supply and a portable cooling tower, wont you fry the PS by trying to put that many boards in ?

Mad Dog


http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/jollyroger.gif

trag
04-06-2001, 02:33 PM
Hey, MadDog. See paragraph six, but don't let that stop you from posting suggestions or problems. It's entirely possible that I missed something important.

The additional ATX power supply powers the additional PCI slots. The power is supplied from the traces on the circuit board that the slot connector is on, so it's simple enough to add an ATX power supply connector to the board, plug the ATX motherboard connector into that, and run power out from that to all the pins in the PCI slots that need power. This also has the advantage that I can hook the ATX PS-ON wire to an inverter installed on the board, and run a wire from the S900's PFW to the other end of the inverter. That'll give me soft power on for the ATX whenever the S900 goes on.

So S900 motherboard on S900 power supply. PCI backplane on ATX power supply.

magician
04-06-2001, 11:55 PM
well, audio engineers with DSP farm cards will love this.

how much are you factoring in for your labor and expertise, per hour?

I think your figure may be low.

and don't forget you need to recoup a little of your R&D!

http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MadDog
04-07-2001, 10:32 PM
Right you are Trag.. I didnt think you could power a PCI backplane separately.

Mad Dog


http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/jollyroger.gif

MadDog
05-21-2001, 08:39 PM
Dogstarman, how goes your JS-800 project ?

Mad Dog


http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/jollyroger.gif

Dogstarman
05-22-2001, 04:47 PM
The project goes well. It has been dubbed Leviathan. I had a last-minute change of plans with the case design. I have to make sure I am 100% before I invest the $$ for the plexi and cuts. But it is done now. And I got out to the HW store and got all the right screws. Mounting through the Plexi adds in 3/8", so I needed new screws for the HD's, power supplies and PCI card fences. The new design will allow for a lower overall height (now about 20"), while allowing me access to one "half" without the risk of mucking up the other while it is running.

Now....wheels or not?

Man, I really need to get my own digital camera and stop borrowing one. http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

trag
05-22-2001, 05:04 PM
Dogstar, I've got those notes on the S900 audio updated adn scanned in. I'll try to remember to email you the diagrams tonight after I get home.

Dogstarman
05-22-2001, 06:17 PM
trag,
Awesome. Thanks SO much for the help.

I had begun to wonder why I was attempting this. Then I remembered the justifications that were thrown out there for other projects. And I decided that I will do it simply cuz I want to. It's not the cheapest way to do what I want. But I think it will be the way with the most versatility and flare.
http://home.earthlink.net/~broricard/index.html

Dogstarman
05-23-2001, 12:02 PM
I decided to definitely include wheels. And just to let you know....I am setting it up in a kinda base config for now. I gotta save some pennies for MW NY. It's gonna be a doozy. The way I figure....this machine will be here for a long time, and upgrades won't get more expensive as time goes on. So as long as I get it up and running, I will be smiling.

MadDog
05-23-2001, 08:56 PM
Im still kind of stuck in determining the best way to paint stripes on the front.

Paint the whole front and add adhesive vinyl stripes ?


Mad Dog


http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/jollyroger.gif

Dogstarman
05-23-2001, 10:50 PM
Mask it off.....apply light coats......wet-sand it....clear-coat. I dunno. That might be how I would go about it.

MadDog
07-06-2001, 12:03 PM
Dogstarman, I bounced an email off your address. Do you have a new one ?

Mad Dog


http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/jollyroger.gif