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View Full Version : Upgrade PCI video card in PM 9600/200?



turtlemac
12-22-2001, 05:11 PM
Hi everybody,
please, does anyone have an idea which inexpensive PCI-based video cards would be the best replacement for the built-in TwinTurbo128+? High res, mill. of colors and 75/85Hz required.
Will a PC card (like Nvidia GeForce2 MX 400) work in a Mac, maybe with a BIOS upgrade/change?
(I am a newbee and no technician at all!)
Thanks for any helpful reply!

ChrisYip
12-22-2001, 09:43 PM
Just about anything I think - Not up on which PC NVidia boards might work but I can attest to the fact that ATI's RADEON PCI boards work well in PTP and G4 Yikes boxes. Folks have been working on making PC video boards work in the Macs...and there was a posting a few days ago about some NVidia boards that apparently work out of the box....

Chris

turtlemac
12-23-2001, 06:20 AM
Thanks,
I had an very good offer for that PowerColor Geforce MX 2 Pro 400 and finally I bought it. Looked up at the Nvidia site where they say the GPU is for Macintosh, too. I will receive the card in the next days.
Discussion in the postings was all about AGP cards, I do hope this PCI card will not have those problems.
Will there be any special preparations for me to do?

(Excuse my English, I am a German guy!)

Boo Berry
12-24-2001, 02:32 PM
Turtlemac, I'm pretty sure that no one has had success using a PCI GeForce 2MX in a pre-G3 PCI Mac.

Here's a thread from the BBS at Accelerate Your Mac on the subject:
http://bbs.xlr8yourmac.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/001036.html

turtlemac
12-27-2001, 08:51 AM
Well, thank you for your advices. I read carefully the thread you mention (plus other postings).
Meanwhile I could annul the order for the GeForce 2 MX with no problems.
But still I need a video card for the PM 9600/200 (originally equipped exept a new ATA 100 Acard controller and a 60MB IBM HDD). I am also going to get a G4/400 upgrade card (Sonnett, XLR8?) soon.
MacOS 9.1 is running on my Mac, but I would also like to install 10.1. I understand MacOS 10.1 can be installed on acceleration cards with a workaround.
What might be then an adequate video card for PCI which will be supported by MacOS X?
I am not at all gamer but doing layouts (QuarkXpress, PM7) and Photoshop a lot. So I do not need 3D, but good 2D acceleration - any ideas?

Rolf

Boo Berry
12-27-2001, 12:33 PM
At this point, your only real PCI video card options are the Radeon PCI or one of the Rage 128 series (Orion, Nexus, or Xclaim VR).

ricks
12-27-2001, 12:49 PM
Hey TM,
Gonna end up changing your name to rabbitmac?

You will love your 9600 with a G3 or G4 cpu in it. I like XLR8 and have bought 4 of them so far. They define customer service today, I have recieved email answers within minutes on questions I had. Great product that works as well or better than any other.

I would recommend the Radeon. It has tons of speed and memory and will pull a load off your cpu while your pushing around big photoshop files. ATI is releasing the new 8500 series at MacworldSF, the Radeon might come down a bit in price then. ATI also has a habit of just stopping production..whammmo...the day they come out with a better/newer product, but there ought to be a ton of them still on shelves.

You've already taken care of accelerating your hard drive and bus. Don't forget RAM. RAM is cheap, RAM is good, more RAM is great. And RAM will probably not get any cheaper.

Have fun, great computer to speed up.
Rick

If your going to go 10.1 I would very carefully pick your graphics card to be mainstream, and that means Radeon, Apple just yesterday admitted they were not going to support many old video cards with OSX, I think a pc version would qualify as doubtful on the support side. (article at maccentral from yesterday)

[This message has been edited by ricks (edited 27 December 2001).]

mactheripper
12-28-2001, 12:40 AM
on the other hand, if you want a cheap monster card, get a used or new 3dfx Voodoo5 5500 card on eBay or out of someone's basement. CompUSA used to have them, and they work with drivers I or someone else can email you. Blazing speed, 64MB VRAM, just no support.

works like a champ in my 9500 alongside my Twin Turbo, which still hauls ass in 2D after all these years.

turtlemac
12-29-2001, 02:03 PM
mactheripper,
does that voodoo5 5500 in yr Mac work under MacOS 10.1? Would I have to look for a Mac version of it or would a PC version work with the BIOS changed? Which one do you have?

At Ebay I was looking for cheap ATI Nexus, Orion, and XClaim cards but wasn't successful yet - they have never been sold in Germany (and Europe?) I think. The only ATI cards I found were PC-based ones (but there we have the flashing problem again) or AGP's, which don't fit.

An ATI Radeon Mac edition seems to be the most reliable option but would also be some kind of investment (around DM 550.-; 1 DM ^= 0,47 USD) for my "old" sweetheart. How much would it cost in the States? Have not found used ones either.

DameEdna
12-29-2001, 04:52 PM
Turtlemac,

The Voodoo5 will not work in OS X at all. You still have several options, though:

1.) If you want the best and fastest, get the Radeon PCI (about $225 U.S.).

2.) If you want a Rage 128--Nexus 128, Orion, Xclaim VR, or the Apple Rage 128 that came in the Blue and White G3 and first-generation G4 (Yikes/PCI Graphics)--there's an auction right now for a Rage Orion. It ends January 5, and the bidding is currently at $91 U.S. Here's a link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1314578258

If that's too expensive, keep looking at eBay, or try reading or posting an ad in the following Usenet groups: comp.sys.mac.forsale, comp.sys.mac.wanted.

3.) You could also get an IXMicro Ultimate Rez card. It's more or less the same card as the original card in your machine, only it has 8MB of video RAM instead of 4MB. If you only need 2D, this should work quite well in OS 9 and adequately in OS X. Other World Computing sells them for $40 U.S. Link:
http://eshop.macsales.com/Catalog_Item.cfm?ID=1135&Item=IXMU8MB

4.) Village Tronic makes a basic 2D card called the MPDD+ that is compatible with OS X. It has 8MB of video RAM and displays millions of colors up to 1024 x 768 @ 75Hz. It lists for abiut $100 U.S., but since Village Tronic is a German company, you may be able to find it cheaper there.

turtlemac
12-29-2001, 07:41 PM
DameEdna, thanks a lot for your kind efforts finding the different options and the links...

Situation is now that I remembered a colleague owning a B/W G3 with a genuine ATI Rage PCI card. I called him - guess what: he is willing to sell his card to me and to get a faster one for his Mac.
He himself isn't really into technical details (as myself - but I am learning!) and asked me if he should get a video card which a German Mac dealership (www.gravis.de (http://www.gravis.de)) offers: a GeForce2 MX AGP with 32 MB SDRAM for approx. USD 110.-. But he was not sure if his G3 would support AGP cards at all, and if this would be really an "upgrade". Nor am I. Is there an AGP port in his computer? Will have a chance to look only in a few days from now.

Sounds like a pretty good chance for me, but does this all makes sense for him? Will the GeForce card be supported in OS X as well? I understand that GeForce cards a being delivered with new G4 macs.

ChrisYip
12-29-2001, 11:31 PM
Was just looking at the Macguru's motherboard diagrams and the B&W G3's don't have an AGP port (I think it was the Graphite Sawtooth's that were the first to ship with it)

Chris

jmikey
12-30-2001, 04:44 AM
I posted a topic about a loss of video after upgrading RAM to 1G from 128M in my PTP 225. According to reccomendations I installed a new clock battery (though old one still tested OK) and did a CUDA reset. After no good result, I took out new RAM and reinstalled OEM ram, went through CUDA reset again, and still no luck. I also swapped monitors replacing my Rasterops with an Apple monitor on a direct Apple connection on the card. (TwinTurbo 128)

My thought now is that possibly the TT128 has gone bad, and I need to get another video card. Perusing the only real local PCI resources I have locally...Comp USA, Office Max, Office Depot...I saw a couple of non-AGP Radeon cards or about $100 and $50 that seemed suitable since I'm interested in Photoshop 2D primarily. They had only Windows drivers, of course, so, my question is, is there a Mac driver that could be downloaded that would work on those cards? Also, how could you install it "blind" with no video?

Hope this isn't stepping on turtlemac's thread.

DameEdna
12-30-2001, 02:29 PM
>But he was not sure if his G3 would support AGP cards at all, and if this would be really an "upgrade". Nor am I. Is there an AGP port in his computer?

No--ChrisYip is right. Your friend's upgrade options are the same as yours.

DameEdna
12-30-2001, 02:33 PM
>I saw a couple of non-AGP Radeon cards or about $100 and $50 that seemed suitable since I'm interested in Photoshop 2D primarily. They had only Windows drivers, of course, so, my question is, is there a Mac driver that could be downloaded that would work on those cards?

Nope--not right now, anyway. The Mac and PC Radeons have different ROMs; some people have experimented with flashing PC Radeons with Mac ROMs, but without success so far.

So you're in the same boat as Turtlemac and his friend. It's becoming doubtful that another high-powered, OS X-compatible Mac PCI card will be released, even though there's a demand for it.

turtlemac
01-12-2002, 04:26 PM
Have not bought any video card yet since I heard that an ATI Radeon 7000 PCI has come out recently. I have tried to get information on that, but apparently it is not available in Germany (maybe not yet?).
Question: Will this card run in my 9600/200, will it support Mac OS X (when upgraded my Mac with an XLR8 G4 card) - and what is the situation in the States (since you are nearer to Silicon Valley as we are here!).

By the way: HAPPY NEW YEAR and A VERY SUCCESSFUL 2002 to anyone!

Rolf

DameEdna
01-12-2002, 05:05 PM
You're in luck! http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

For the specifications, go here:
http://www.ati.com/na/pages/products/mac/radeon7000_me/index.html

gaderson
01-13-2002, 01:39 AM
Question: Will this card run in my 9600/200, will it support Mac OS X (when upgraded my Mac with an XLR8 G4 card) - and what is the situation in the States (since you are nearer to Silicon Valley as we are here!).

Yes, and only OS X, I looked at the site also thinking of using one, and it's drivers will only run in 9.2.1 or above--which doesn't run on a 9600/200 (which I also have.) You need OpenGL 1.2.2--1.2.1 is on 9.1 the highest standard OS you can reliably run on a 9600. I've yet to try my PCI Radeon on my 8500 running OS X so I'll see if it's any faster.

erik g

lasvegas
01-13-2002, 01:58 AM
In all likelyhood, the drivers will work in OS 9.1. There isn't that much difference between 9.1 and 9.2.1. If needed, there are techniques listed at XLR8 Your Mac (http://www.xlr8yourmac/) that will allow your 9600 to run 9.2.1. Since the card lists as compatible with 33MHz PCI and OS X, it should work fine in X on your 9600.

kaye
01-13-2002, 02:07 AM
I'm looking at a Radeon 7000 Mac Edition flyer I picked up from ATI at Macworld SF. It says:

PCI capable Macintosh
OS9.0 or later
OSX 10.1 or later
OpenGL 1.2.2 reqd for 3D graphics (on the Radeon 7000 installer CD)
QuickTime 5.0

You can stick with OS9.1 and still update OpenGL to 1.2.2. I've done several OpenGL updates to the latest with various flavors of OS9. k

RedPhoenix
01-16-2002, 12:26 PM
What I wanna know is: if I have two G3s, a Beige 233 and a B&W 400, which card would give the most bang for the buck between the full Radeon PCI and the Radeon 7000 for the following tasks:

- Photoshop
- MacOS X (especially for the Beige 233)

- No intensive gaming.
- No second monitor, at least not in the near future.

I especially wanna know if the Radeons provide noticeable acceleration in MacOS X. Breeden's site doesn't talk much about the PCI Radeons - he focuses on the AGP versions.

Come to think of it, is MacOS X even susceptible to 2D/3D acceleration through a Radeon or is it all in the CPU?

RedPhoenix

dragon_x
01-16-2002, 03:14 PM
To accelerate 2D (aqua/quartz) in X you need a RAGE128 or faster. For 2D purposes the RADEON PCI and AGP are identical. For 2D the RADEON and RAGE128Pro are nearly identical, with a slight edge to the RADEON. The RADEON 7K should also be the same for 2D and it should be better than the RAGE128Pro for 3D.

You do not get 'full' acceleration with AQUA/Quartz like you would with the old bit-mapped video. Quartz is a more advanced & complex 'display post script' so you can get great effects (drop shadows & transparencies) with relatively little cost (but it still aint cheap). You can see the dif between accerated and unaccelerated cards though. I have a G4/466 with an ATIRAGE128Pro AGP and it is wicked fast when compaired to the ix3D 8MB PCI card. In system 9 the ix3D is no longer painfully slow.

The Radeon 7K should run around $120 + ship
I have seen the original RADEON PCI fro around $150+ship - you might want to check buy.com

If you want to play UT like games the original PCI radeon is the card you want. To really push the vintage RADEON you need at least a 733G4. My FPS nearly doubled (33FPS avg. to 60FPS avg.) in UT when I went from a 500MhzG3 to an 867MhzG4. If you are into games like Civ2 & Diablo1 then the RADEON 7K should give you the best bang!

The RAGE128 and newer also give you good QT and DVD acceleration.

RedPhoenix
01-17-2002, 08:47 AM
Mmmhhh... Thanks for the info! This means that 2D-wise, the Radeons may not have the extra kick I was looking for. Tthe B&W G3/400 has the original Rage128 Pro (plus hardware DVD decoder) and the Beige has an XClaimVR 128.

Oh well, maybe if I do see a really good deal, it'll be worth it.

Thanks,

RP

RedPhoenix
01-18-2002, 12:19 PM
Just thought I'd point out that Breeden has started a comments page for the Radeon 7000

http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/Graphics/radeon_7000_feedback.html#storytop

RP

hartello
02-02-2002, 10:33 PM
I was wondering how to obtain OpenGL 1.2.2 so I can do the upgrade.
I'm running OS 9.1 in a Umax S900 and understand 9.2.1 (the OS that has 1.2.2) won't run on my machine unless I do some "stuff".
I would like to try the new Radeon 7000 and although 1.2.2 isn't required to make it work (?), it is required for 3D.
On the topic of the Radeon 7000. Can anyone provide feedback on how it compares with the original Radeon, especially in the DVI flat panel mode?

Jim

TriPhaze
02-05-2002, 04:33 PM
Download 9.2.2 from here:

http://www.macupdate.com/download.php/Mac_OS_9.2.2_Update.smi.bin?id=6828

I tried to use a ViewSonic G75f monitor on my Power Mac 8500 with the Radeon 7000. It did not work. Because of the case design of the 8500/9500 Macs, the VGA port on the PCI Radeon and the 7000 cannot be accessed. You have to use a DVI-VGA adapter. I could not get a signal from the card. A PCI Radeon used in the same manner works perfectly.