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Macdaddi2u
06-11-2001, 03:17 AM
Hey guys, I am interested in getting some video accelleration in my 8500/G3 500 running OS 9.1. Photoshop is a consideration, but I will play the occasional game as well. Can anyone suggest some choices that have a good chance of working with my system please. Also is there any news of new cards? Any help would be appreciated.

jorge
06-11-2001, 12:14 PM
If you can find a ATI Rage 128, that would be idea and inexpensive. If not, the Radeon or Formac Performance3 are very good choices.

j

Macdaddi2u
06-11-2001, 04:58 PM
Thenks Jorge, I will keep a lookout for the Rage 128, if I cant find one I will go with the Formac. I looked at the Formac page before I posted, it just wasnt clear to me whether my OS 9.1 was supported, and I dont know enough to about video to make an intelligent choice anyway.

Macdaddi2u
06-11-2001, 06:07 PM
Would you tell me exactly what will fit and work in my 8500 please (I understand my computer is PCI based, what other kind is there?). I see some cards available for mac, and far more available for PC. Assuming that I know absolutely nothing about video would you please help me and give me a basic rundown on some differences, ie platforms and such. At this point I dont even know what will fit in the slot let alone what functions are best performed by different ones. Appearently, the ATI rage 128 boards are no longer in production (is that right, or has ATI just been absorbed by Radeon and will be calling the same item something else. I remember, many years ago Radeon had a poor reputation for quality control). It seems, many are just waiting to see IF anyone will fill the hole in the market left by ATI and 3Dfx. Other than a very healthy price tag, do the Formac boards have any downside that you know of?

Dogstarman
06-11-2001, 06:37 PM
Your computer is PCI only. Newer machines have an AGP slot (Advanced Graphics Protocol, I believe). Older Macs have Nubus and/or PDS slots. So the short story is, any video card with a PCI format should fit in your machine.

ATI is no longer making/selling anything other than Radeon to us Mac users. Radeon is a model of card that just came out recently. Not a brand. ATI makes and markets the Radeon.

Formac is somewhere in the dust. Hopefully trying to get out. Mag should have more info. Or one of the other Gurus.

3dfx is toast. No support beyond current drivers, which work well under OS 9.1.

Nvidia is coming along. Not sure how kindly they will treat us PCI folks, though.

My suggestion is to get a Rage128-based ATI card. Simply the best all-around and affordable card ever made, IMHO. The Formac boards slightly beat just about anything out there for 2D (scrolling, redraws, etc). 3D probably goes to the Radeon overall. K should have some definitve numbers on another thread here somewhere.

But if you are doing occasional PS work with some gaming and some usual home user things, the Rage128 should more than satisfy you.

Louie
06-11-2001, 07:13 PM
And do not buy a video card for a PeeCee. Very rarely can they be flashed to work on a Mac. The ATI Radeon and Formac are the only new PCI Mac cards right now, I believe. Your best bet is to find an ATI Rage 128 series card (Orion, Nexus, VR) on eBay.

Macdaddi2u
06-11-2001, 08:25 PM
Louie, still chuckling over the "dont buy one for a Pee Cee". Not that I knew better, as far as I know it would work fine, so I appreciate the direction. Even though you said there is a small chance one might flash, I wouldnt be one of those lucky few, maybe Kaye might be able to pull it off, but not me. D.S.M. I appreciate you spelling all that out for me, it does help alot in making the picture clearer for me. I just love this site!!!! You guys are just the best....there is nowhere around the area I live in, to get anything more than "Huh?" or "I dont know" when asking a question about a Mac.........stranded in pee cee land... what would be reasonable price tags for the Orion, Nexus and VR, anyone have an idea? I found someone selling an Orion, but have no idea what they went for new or their value now, any ideas?

[This message has been edited by Macdaddi2u (edited 11 June 2001).]

Macdaddi2u
06-11-2001, 09:26 PM
Just left the ATI site. Appearently, they have something available for the Mac PCI population called a Radeon Mac Edition 32mb. For a whopping 230.00 retail we too can own one of these. Other than the ugly price tag, does anyone know how it compares with its predecessors or how it performs in general? I seem to recall reading something Mag wrote in a thread I can't find now, saying, I believe unkind things (hehehe) with regards to Radeon. Did I read that right, anyone know? I thought he said beast has rage 128's and is going to test some new Formacs that just came in. Cant be sure, I need to stop trying to read this stuff at 3:00 a.m.

Louie
06-11-2001, 09:29 PM
I should have worded like this: only a few video card models designed for PeeCee's in history have been flashable for use in a Mac. The 3dfx Voodoo II and III come to mind. The chipset must be aminable and someone smart enough has to write the firmware.

Use eBay's "Sold" search. I saw an Orion go for $120 about two weeks ago. The Nexus should be higher than Orion and the 128VR the highest. Be careful on eBay. Not everyone is nice. There is a much older ATI card also called Nexus. I've seen them try to pawn that off as the Nexus 128.

Dogstarman
06-11-2001, 11:59 PM
I have seen the Nexus GA (Older model) still selling on a couple e-commerce places. For like $450!!!!!! It's a great card. I have 2. But no way would I pay that for a 3 year old card.

I did happen to buy a Nexus128 on ebay about 3-4 weeks ago. I wanted an Orion, but they are fetching $100 or more usually. I got the Nexus for $98 including shipping. "Orion" is all the buzz. Seems people forgot that the Nexus is basically the same card with more VRAM. Only really useful for big-screen 3D renders, but it can't hurt. AND it was cheaper than an Orion.

The ATI Radeon is a great card. It really is. But the drivers (are they really drivers?!?!) suck bad. And as bad as they suck...they suck more if you are using it with another ATI card. I think even with 2 Radeons, Mag was having a lot of issues. So in and of itself, the Radeon is a great performer, they just need to get better SW support headed our way. And don't even think about using it now with 2 monitors on one machine.

Macdaddi2u
06-12-2001, 12:00 AM
Hey Louie, if I can find one of those 3DFX Voodoo cards, do you think I could talk kaye into writing the firmware?.......just kiddin hehe. Thanks for the heads up on the nexus scam, I could have easily fallen prey to something like that. I will be looking for Rage 128's, who knows maybe I will get lucky. With the used cards, other than them coming out and saying so, how can I identify a Mac product vs a pee cee product?

P.S. Whether or not they still exist, I dont know, but back in the 80's, Radeon was a manufacturer. My confusion was connecting them with the ATI model, thanks for straightening me out on that.

D.S.M.- thanks for the scoop, that helps a lot. I forgot to mention I was planning on connecting a second monitor via the card, so that means the Radeon is out.....You guys are saving me major headaches!!

[This message has been edited by Macdaddi2u (edited 12 June 2001).]

Dogstarman
06-12-2001, 12:22 AM
The Voodoo3 cards really are sweet. I am running one now. There is the 2000 and 3000 model. The only difference is the clock speed of the GPU. I flashed my 2000 with the ROM for the 3000 and it has been working rock-solid with the latest drivers they had (for the Voodoo4 &5). This is entirely unsupported, but it works for me. YMMV, of course. And you have to live with the fact that it is officially a terminated product line. The way I figure, most of my Macs won't see anything past the OS I am running now, so it's all good.

Macdaddi2u
06-12-2001, 03:27 AM
When I actually get a card to put in my 8500,(leaning towards Orion due to availability), will I need to disable anything to make things run smoothly. Just thinking about the case of my XLR8 G-3/CPU daughter card, and needing to remove the MOBO cache to get things running smooth Can I leave the MOBO VRAM in place or will it cause problems? How about the A/V connections that are stock on the 8500? Will they still work in conjunction with an Orion?
Checked out the Nvidia site, appearently they offer only the AGP variety to the Mac user. Voodoo 3...hmmmmm, I thought Louie was just messin with me.

[This message has been edited by Macdaddi2u (edited 12 June 2001).]

magician
06-12-2001, 04:10 AM
getting ready to overhaul the video pages.....there have been a lot of changes, so it is a big job.

formac....well, they may be going under, though some suspect they are simply focusing on OSX. They appear to be completely vacating the OS9 videocard market at this time. The Formac Studio I am running on berserker is so-so....the ProTV software definitely feels more like a 1.0-release than the claimed 2.6.1. I shudder to imagine what earlier versions were like. It's usable, but not everything works right. Which is damned inexcusable in a $3-400 piece of gear.

radeon....absolutely: NEVER use it with another card, or even with a second Radeon, unless you want life to suck. Scrolling is absolutely busted if you have more than one card. If you use it solo, it is decent in 3.3v and 5v PCI slots, and in the AGP form factor.

my faves remain the discontinued Rage 128-series. Why ATI discontinued these three award-winning boards when they were selling steadily and freely in the channel, and delivered unprecedented 2D and 3D to the Mac market, I will never understand. For those of you who are wagering on whether or not this crazy old fat coot will actually follow-through on his statements, I will at least favor the CEO of ATI with a look of baffled pity rather than tracking him and gut-punching him in an elevator. I am trying to give peace a chance, and getting back to readingthe Dhamma. Maybe I just need to up my meds.

http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

i still think my favorite card of all time remains the Rage 128VR. It has the speed of the Orion/Nexus, with really decent capture and output to tape, and wicked TV functionality. It is is stable, as long as you stay down at OS9.04. It gets funkadelic under 9.1. That whole dad-blamed Radeon release of drivers blows.

ok.

where's my Buddha book....

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
"And what is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress, knowledge with regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to the cessation of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: This is called right view."

-- Digha Nikaya 22
Maha-Satipatthana Sutta
The Great Frames of Reference
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

that's better.

http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Macdaddi2u
06-12-2001, 06:49 PM
Mag, thanks for the direction, since VR is funky with 9.1 and my 8500 has 9.1, do you have a suggestion given the choices of Nexus and Orion? Which do you think I would be likely to have better luck with? As for the stress, Budda and the meds might be good, but sometimes a dark room with headphones on and the volume up is the easiet way to block out the external and internal noises. May I suggest Captain Beyond (I.B. spinoff), 1st album.

D.S.M. are you sure the only difference between the Rage 128 Orion and Rage 128 Nexus is extra VRAM in the Nexus?

[This message has been edited by Macdaddi2u (edited 12 June 2001).]

Mactacular
06-12-2001, 09:32 PM
Even though 3dfx is not around officially, their cards are great. The Voodoo3 3000 and 2000 PCI cards are much cheaper and will readily outperform an ATI Rage-128 based card, especially in gaming. Voodoo3s can be found for around $40 on eBay. There's also the 3dfx Voodoo 5 5500 PCI 64MB dual chip video card, $99 new at megamacs.com , a very fast card, especially in gaming where it shines with the 4x Full Screen Anti-Aliasing feature. The ATI Radeon nor the brand new GeForce 3 cards feature FSAA on the Mac side. FSAA smooths out all the jagged edges in games to make them superb. Also keep in mind the 3dfx Voodoo cards support 3 APIs for gaming, Glide, RAVE, and OpenGL. I prefer the 3dfx cards over the ATI cards for the Voodoo cards have better drivers and faster performance. They really shine in gaming. Although they were bought out by nVIDIA, former 3dfx employees have put together a new company called 3dPower, www.3dpower.com, (http://www.3dpower.com,) maybe they could offer software updates? Anyways, I like the 3dfx cards a lot, I have Voodoo3s and 5s hooked up in my Macs, and they really work great.

Dogstarman
06-12-2001, 11:52 PM
The Nexus and all other Rage128 cards use the (obviously) Rage128 engine and chipset. The exact specs for each card reflected the additional capacity of the doubled VRAM of the Nexus. I believe the clock speed was the same or REAL close. The Nexus was marketed for pros. The Orion was marketed for gamers. The VR128 was marketed for in-betweens. Gamers have no real need for video in/out. In-betweens need a cheap, functional solution. Pros are using dedicated PCI solutions for I/O. But they would need the absolute best card for rendering. That would have been the Nexus (at the time). Maybe Mag or someone has specific info, but I am 95% sure that they are all the same chipset, which would explain the close pricetag when these badboys were new.

Dogstarman
06-12-2001, 11:52 PM
Damn "back" button on this IntelliMouse. Sorry for the double post. http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Dogstarman (edited 12 June 2001).]

Macdaddi2u
06-13-2001, 12:52 AM
D.S.M....you are really well informed on these cards, and I appreciate the guidance very much, thanks. Makes me wonder now, since the three are so similar, why the VR would act screwy with 9.1, and the other two dont. I dont really need the "why" though, knowing it does is enough and I will steer clear of it. I guess my 1st choice will be a Nexus, and will only go with an Orion only if I cant get my hands on a Nexus. If all else is the same, then as you said, a little extra VRAM cant hurt.

Mactacular..if I were far more experienced, and much more capable, I might consider a VooDoo, but under the circumstances, I feel like it would be a long shot, if I ran into software trouble, I would be out of luck, but thanks for the ideas. Just out of curiousity, do you know if the 3DFX cards coexist happily with Rage 128's?

despaxas
06-13-2001, 04:04 AM
The 128VR needs additional drivers for the TV and capture, so the 9.1 issue is probably related to one of those 128VR specific extensions. I have a Voodoo5 and 128VR together, and they are happy in 8.6 and 9.0.4.

Dogstarman
06-13-2001, 06:50 PM
Right....the ATI cards work well with the 3dfx. I have both a new Nexus128 and the older Nexus GA both in machines that also have a Voodoo3 in them.

As far as getting a card, just make sure you set your limit on prices. If you can get a new Nexus for about the same as an Orion, go for it. Within a few bucks. More is not always better. And unless you plan on using the VRAM, the Orion should work very well. But, like I said....more people know about the Orion. So more people are looking for it. Don't forget the typo trick if you are using an auction site.....just check for "Oroin" instead of "Orion". Auction titles cannot be edited once there is a bid placed on them on most sites. Good way to play on another's misfortune. So long as that doesn't spook you out any. http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Macdaddi2u
06-13-2001, 09:31 PM
D.S.M. you are an enormous help here. I have been watching your thread on the 8500 video since day one. The multiple display gets more interesting to me by the minute. Ok, I confess,I love options. Let me get this straight, I can use the Orion card and the stock monitor terminal on the 8500 in conjunction with two monitors to effect the splitting of the desktop and run a T.V. off the video out or S Vid out and have a mirror of #1 monitor, or watch something else with the T.V.? Will that work? Does that pretty much decribe the set up on FrankenMac? Right now since I am close enough to the 36" T.V. I connected it to the video out and my Sony DVD to the video in. With this set up, I can watch the DVD on the T.V. or Both the T.V. and my monitor. This is cool! Question..adding an Orion, I will be able to split the desk top in halves using two monitors? Is that right or did I miss something?......tried the typo error for the ebay search but no luck today, I will keep trying

[This message has been edited by Macdaddi2u (edited 13 June 2001).]

Dogstarman
06-13-2001, 10:06 PM
As long as you have the full 4 MB of VRAM in the machine, you will be able to run a second-stream output from the RCA/SVHS ouput. Second-stream basically refers to the ability to run a second display without shutting down the built-in monitor output. With any less than 4 MB, the built-in turns black (effectively sleeps) while the video out is enabled. With the full VRAM, the video output can either mirror the built-in monitor image OR display an additional workspace. The additional workspace would basically make your computer think it has a desktop stretched across 2 monitors. You can set 2 different dektops patterns/images. And the cursor and windowns (et al) will drag across the 2 screens seamlessly, as long as you configure it in the Monitors control panel. That is an easy task and you will figure it out easily enough. If you add in another video output (read - PCI card) you can hook in another monitor and increase the usable desktop space once again. Now you can use 3 separate desktop pics and drag across 3 screens. It is a powerful thing to only take up one PCI slot and be running 3 monitors.

So yes, you can watch your DVDs on a display through the computer. And still be working on the other screen(s). The only real benefit to this is the enabling of A/V capture from an external source. Quality won't be as great as a nice ProScan or Sony Wega, but it will be right in front of you and can come in handy lots of times. Best bet? Pick up a cheap VCR and run it into your machine so you can catch all the hockey games or see yourself on the local news (if some of us are that lucky http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ).

And it's plain awesome to have some of the coolest alert sounds snipped out of movies. Novelty item. But fun nonetheless. Glad my discoveries with my FrankenThing provided some entertainment and knowledge. It actually sounded good to read the thread again and see that I sounded like I knew what I was talking about. After all that, I decided to put that motherboard into my latest project. An even bigger FrankenMess. It's gonne be great!

Mag, I never thanked you for the Buddhist reference. So...thank you. I copied it down and posted it over the desk at my day job. The folks there either love it or look at me funny for posting it. Either way, mission accomplished!

Louie
06-13-2001, 11:52 PM
And, you could add an ixTV PCI card and watch live TV and capture it if you so desire.

Macdaddi2u
06-14-2001, 01:13 AM
This is great!! so far I have two functional working desktops (gotta find something other than my 36" T.V. for display #2) and with the addition of one card, I get three working desktops. Can life be that good without a downside? Whats the catch? What do I give up making a setup like this? Truthfully, I am more interested in the workspace of the extended desktops. The T.Y. thing is fun, and as you said the video capture aspect will be handy and wont cost me anything I know of, since I have most of what I need to accomplish the mission. I do have the full 4 mb of VRAM

[This message has been edited by Macdaddi2u (edited 14 June 2001).]

Dogstarman
06-14-2001, 04:37 PM
Downside to that setup? Heck, I dunno. If you figure it out, tell me. I havent; come up with one yet. The AV Macs have always been the cat's PJs.

Mactacular
06-14-2001, 04:52 PM
If you want the "real deal" for TV on the Mac, besides the out of business ixMicro ixTV card, Formac has the ProTV/Stereo card, video capture, TV, and FM radio on a PCI card for $99. It looks pretty neat, I've got my 8600/200 I was intending on pulling the USB card for to put in a Creative Labs Soundblaster put read a review at macgames.com about bad software issues with the card. I can use TV with the Apple Video Player with a VCR on my built in A/V, but a real TV tuner card would be nice. Has anyone used the Formac ProTV card?

[This message has been edited by Mactacular (edited 14 June 2001).]

magician
06-15-2001, 01:04 AM
the Formac ProTV is virtually the same hardware used in the discontinued ixTV. I have used both. In fact, those of you who owned ixTVs may remember when ixMicro password-protected their TV application update downloads? Guess why? Yup. So Formac ProTV owners couldn't use the superior ixTV software.

as one who owned about a dozen ixTV's (we had them in virtually every machine here), I can confirm that it was, in its day, superior to the Formac ProTV. I am using the ProTV software again, today, while I write this, tuning a cable TV signal thru the new FireWire Formac Studio running off berserker. The software hasn't evolved significantly, IMO, since I last used it, back when I selected ixTV's over Formac boards several years ago. Granted, the plumbing actually works, and it is possible to actually watch TV over FireWire, which is an important development, but the feature set of the software, and its stability, is eclipsed by the software included with the ATI Rage 128VR.

I guess I should be pleased that I can again watch TV on this Yose, but I'm a little spoiled--and spoiled by ATI. I prefer their software on several levels, and if it were possible to run a Rage 128VR in one of the PCI slots of this Yosemite with a pair of Radeon, I would do so. I have not tried running a Rage 128VR in the 3.3v slot with a pair of Nexus or Orion in the 5v slots, but I suppose I could do so. I am satisfied, for the moment, running three Radeon in the Yose, watching TV over FireWire. For now. I'll see what happens next month at MacWorld, and make changes afterwards. I do not consider 3 Radeon in the Yose a long-term viable configuration. Scrolling acceleration on two of three displays is still broken, IMO.

I need to clarify one thing. I mentioned that the Rage 128VR gets "squirrelly" under OS9.1. This should not be considered a broad indictment against the board and its drivers. You just need to be careful. You may have to wrestle with the drivers a bit, but once you get them set, you'll be fine. It is, despite the fact that ATI apparently has abandoned the Rage 128VR and further development of its drivers, the best solution of its kind on the Macintosh. ATI has promised to deliver a USB TV solution using its XClaim VideoPlayer application in the future, but it is already late (considering their old announcements at MacWorld-SF), and there is no telling whether ATI will do much more than fade into obscurity in the face of the superior nVidia juggernaut.

We still run the Rage 128VR in most machines here. And in most of them, it still works. You do have to jiggle extensions sets, though, and for that, I blame ATI. Why this solution could be so stable and simple under OS9.04 but suddenly get fragile under OS9.1 is a mystery to me, and can only suggest that ATI simply doesn't care, or lacks the resources or even the vision to address it. Maybe the ire I have directed at the CEO of ATI is misdirected. Maybe their Macintosh Product Manager is the friggin' idiot who should be smacked around.

ok. Here I go again.

Let me dig into the Dhamma....

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
"And this is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: precisely this Noble Eightfold Path -- right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration."

--Samyutta Nikaya LVI.11
Dhammacakkapavattana Sutta
Setting the Wheel of Dhamma in Motion
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

phew. That's better. I almost got started again.

http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[This message has been edited by magician (edited 15 June 2001).]

Louie
06-15-2001, 02:26 PM
Ahh! Formac and ATI; two of my most favorite Mac vendors.

Macdaddi2u
06-15-2001, 08:41 PM
I just read a description of a rage 128 card written by the cards seller. The description stated that "the card is natively supported by OS 9, no other driver needed". Is this true? Would this include OS 9.1? If true would it also hold true for Nexus and VR? I guess it wouldnt for the nexus or VR, they didnt come in Macs did they, just orion.

[This message has been edited by Macdaddi2u (edited 15 June 2001).]

Louie
06-15-2001, 10:47 PM
That's true. I use a Rage Orion 128 with OS 9.1 and the Apple OpenGL 1.2.1 download package ( which is newer than the OpenGL in 9.1).

Macdaddi2u
06-15-2001, 11:56 PM
I just got through downloading and installing the open GL 1.2.1 , if only getting the card to go with it was that easy......thanks for the tip, its much appreciated.

Louie
06-16-2001, 12:41 AM
You are quite welcome.

Macdaddi2u
06-16-2001, 01:20 AM
Can you tell me if Blue and White G-3's are AGP or PCI?

titanium
06-16-2001, 01:30 AM
Blue and Whites are PCI.. 4 slots I believe.

[This message has been edited by titanium (edited 16 June 2001).]

Macdaddi2u
06-16-2001, 01:33 AM
thanks, I may have a lead on an orion, wahoo!!

titanium
06-16-2001, 10:58 AM
Didn't the blue and whites come with a Rage 128 installed in one of their PCI slots?

Dogstarman
06-16-2001, 05:40 PM
RIght. The B&W machine came with either a 75Mhz or a 90-100Mhz Rage128 pre-installed in the one 66Mhz-32-bit PCI slot. The other 3 slots are 64-bit 33Mhz. The first revision machines had the slower Rage (300-some 400 Mhz models). All the 450Mhz models have the faster Rage, and some of the 400Mhz machines did, too. It all depends on the build date.

titanium
06-17-2001, 06:05 PM
I read some of the benchmarks on imgmagazine.com for the V5, Radeon PCI, V3, and Radeon AGP cards. The difference is so minimal in all PCI cards that it almost seems pointless to get a better one. The Radeon AGP preformed 12 FPS faster than the Radeon PCI in the same G4/500 in Q3 Arena 800x600 high quality settings. This was with the sawtooth G4's I believe, so if I remember right, they have all 33 mhz PCI slots for some odd reason. I'm not even sure how fast my PCI slots are (8500), but, the performance boost from V3 to Radeon PCI looks too minimal to spend the dough on.

I never realized that AGP made such a marginal difference.

Dogstarman
06-17-2001, 11:54 PM
I believe the AGP port frees up a lot the rest of the system bus for other tasks. This way the high-power video card won't have any influence on the performance of any other card in the PCI bus. AGP makes sure that the graphics have a dedicated pipeline to the CPU without interfering with anythin else. But yes...it makes little difference, except in the latest 4x AGP Macs.

Your slots are all 33Mhz. Apple realized that so few card took advantage of the double-speed PCI slot and when they did, the results weren't that great. Plus, with AGP being universally accepted it was a no-brainer. It was a great in-between step. But it was probably just meant to hold us over while AGP took place.

Macdaddi2u
06-21-2001, 04:29 AM
Its been a while, I have been feverishly attempting to secure a 128 Rage PCI card with no luck. Looking seriously at a Voodoo 5 5500 64mb PCI. Anyone have thoughts on those. I would apprecieate suggestions and advice.

Dogstarman
06-21-2001, 04:53 PM
I just bought a Voodoo5. It should be coming any day now.....I seriously doubt they will get anywhere close to maxed out running on a vintage Mac. I am wondering what to do with the drives in my 9600 when the Voodoo comes. I have 2 Cudas "stacked" in a very custom arrangement on a modified carrier in the bottom of the 9600. The Voodoo5 is a 12" card, so I need to move at least one of the drives. Could be a mess.

I have read a lot of great things about the Voodoo5, and they are cheap enough now. The latest set of drivers works well with my Voodoo cards running OS9.0.4 and 9.1, which is as far as I think your 8500 will get. I doubt OSX will be friendly to machines that old. http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I will let you know my impressions of the card next week, after it arrives and I get to assault it.

Mactacular
06-21-2001, 05:11 PM
I am running a Voodoo 5 card in my Powermac 8600/XLR8 500Mhz G3/512MB RAM setup as mentioned, and it is a very fast card. It is the most compatible video card I have used (I won't get into the dozens of conflicts I had with an ATI Rage 128 card). The card exists peacefully with everything I am using. It regularly yields up to 60FPS in a game of Unreal Tournament, 2D speed is very fast, and the 4x Full Screen Anti-Aliasing feature really is superb. It smooths out all the jagged edges in 3d rendered games. Very nice. But, if you are going to do OSX, you'll need an ATI card for the support, although a new Mac ROM flashing program for both nVIDIA GeForce 2MX and ATI Rage 128 and Radeon cards has been released. It may be possible to use cheap PC GeForce 2MX PCI or ATI Radeon PCI cards. You can check up on this in the forums at www.xlr8yourmac.com (http://www.xlr8yourmac.com)


[This message has been edited by Mactacular (edited 21 June 2001).]

Macdaddi2u
06-21-2001, 05:53 PM
This is great guys! I was gettin a bit frustrated not being able to get a 128 rage card. I see a ray of sunshine coming through the clouds (relief!!!!). I am running OS 9.1 and although its not perfect, losing control panel settings occasionally and one corrupted preference file. Other than that it runs well and I've had two freezes over the past month, due to java errors on the net. Compared to what was going on before, 9.1 is running great and I dont plan on trying to go to OS X with this machine ever.
Mactacular: I did read what you posted down toward the bottom of this thread again because I remembered you mentioning the 2 and 3 series Voodoo, but didnt know what you were running the Voodoo 5 in. Thanks for posting again, your 8600 doesnt sound that far removed from my 8500. I am hoping that if you can use the voodoo 5 5500 in yours and Dogstarman can run one happily in his 8500,I should be able to run a Voodoo 5 5500 happily in my 8500. http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/cool.gif

Macdaddi2u
06-30-2001, 12:39 AM
I've made a little progress since I last posted. My 8500 (OS 9.1) has all 3 PCI slots filled. I have an XLR8 USB card, Voodoo 5 5500 and a Rage 128 VR. Are there any peculiarities that would make it best to put any of those cards in particular slots or particular order? There are a few things that are making me scratch my head. At start up, the XLR8 extension icon appears first, then disappears when the 3dfx icon and the rest come up. The 128 VR board seems to work, but the TV and video capture features dont. In fact the power light doesnt even light on the TV box. I've tried 2 different S-video cables just to be sure one wasnt bad. The control panel does indicates the monitor or Television, I tried both are recognized. Does anyone know what extensions and updates I should and shouldnt be using?

Whats in there now:
3DFX Driver ROM 1.3.6
Glide Lib 2X
Glide Lib 3X
Graphic Accellerator 1.1.3
Open Renderor 1.1.3
Rave 1.1.3
ATI 3D Acellorator 5.0.3
Desktop extension 1.5
Driver update 1.6.8
ATI extension
Graphic Acellerator 5.2.4
Mac 2T 2.7
MPP mgr 1.2
Offsc..m mgr 1.2
Radeon Accellerator 6.1.3
Rage 128 Accellerator 5.9.8
Resource mgr 2.7.3
Xclaim 128 Driver 1.1

[This message has been edited by Macdaddi2u (edited 30 June 2001).]

despaxas
07-02-2001, 05:10 AM
The TV tuner box uses an enhanced s-video cable so that power is supplied to the box. Do you still have the original cable? There are one or two extra pins on it.

There is a lot of info on the 128VR in the forums, just do a search. Mine is fully functional with a V5 in 8.6 and 9.0.4.

Macdaddi2u
07-02-2001, 11:11 AM
The person I bought the card from was really nice and sent me the card with 4 or 5 cables and connecting devices, all in unopened bags. I am assuming they are the ones that came with the 128 VR card but dont know for sure. The S-Video cable he sent me with the card came in a clear plastic bag, and is solid black, but has no other identifying features. I would love to find out that I only needed to change out the cable. Thanks (if you mean the extra pins on the little Y adapter plug, I might be wrong, but I think the two extra pins are for the second RCA cable)

[This message has been edited by Macdaddi2u (edited 02 July 2001).]

despaxas
07-02-2001, 06:43 PM
The card came with a couple bags of cables, so you may have the originals. The cable I got was white and has three extra pins for a total of seven. It says "copartner" on the cable, along with the other standard lettering. The a/v macs also have these same extra 3 pins on their s-video inputs (never tried the tuner with them though) so the cables have to be sold somewhere. ATI called it the "enhanced" s-video cable, but who knows if that is a standard name for it.

Macdaddi2u
07-02-2001, 08:58 PM
I am really pleased with the deal I got from the Seller ( SUBSTANTIALLY less than they go for on ebay ). I got the Xclaim Rage VR 128bit 16mb card. a 3 ft. S-video cable. The dongle with the 7 pins on one end and S-video and RCA on the other. A single end S-video to a single end RCA . A single end RCA to a single end RCA. All the cables were new in unopened bags. It also came with the ATI CD and Strata video shop CD, 4 manuals and the TV tuner box. The only thing I didnt get was the monitor adapter, and considering the deal, I am not the least bit distessed about that. I believe, all I need to do is find out how to make it all work right. Found out a couple of tips during the search you recommeneded. 1) Install Open GL 1.2.1 last. I made the mistake of downloading and installing the ATI unversal installer before I got the card. This is the one item that wants the monitor connected and the card installed BEFORE the software is installed. 2) With the multi-monitor configuration I am running, the monitor attached to the ATI board needs to be the start up monitor in the control panels or the TV feature wont work. Its nice when I do a search and it pays off, thanks for the suggestion.

despaxas
07-03-2001, 03:33 AM
There are two s-video cables supplied with the card. A standard 4 pin, and the enhanced 7 pin. It appears you are missing the 7 pin. The dongle is for RCA/s-video out to TV or VCR.

BTW, the 128VR doesn't have to be the startup monitor, you just cannot watch TV on another monitor.

[This message has been edited by despaxas (edited 03 July 2001).]

Macdaddi2u
07-03-2001, 12:34 PM
Thanks, I guess I read something wrong...not the first time its happened. I shall go an purchase a 7 pin S-video cable today if I can find one. Now for the dumb question of the day, can you tell me how to go about uninstalling ALL the ATI stuff, so I can start over and hopefully get it right this time? please

despaxas
07-04-2001, 03:54 AM
It's been awhile, but I think there is an uninstall option in the universal installer. If not, you can always trash the ATI folder, preferences, and all the crazy extensions it installs.

A useful tip; disable Apple Guide Extension under 9.x if the desktop TV does not load properly.

Macdaddi2u
07-04-2001, 07:15 AM
I know this sounds nuts, I thought about trying the the install thing but I have actually become gunshy about installing anything, I know its silly bescause you can always abort before its done. Anyway thanks, I needed to hear it. I shall write down that tip as well about the apple guide. Not sure why, but my searches dont tap into the archives, just whats current. I have no doubt that somewhere there lies a definitive thread on what to have and not to have when using this Xclaim 128 VR card. Thanks again

dragon_x
07-04-2001, 01:36 PM
disable Apple Guide Extension under 9.x
I'm not positive, but I'm fairly sure that the 'Apple Guide' extension is necessary for video drivers. I remember this because in previous versions of the MacOS I would always turn it off. When I installed 9 (maybe 9.1?) I found my video drivers would not load and it was missing some stupid file that was not there. Turns out enabling the Apple guid extension solved it, so I assume Apple is 'embedding' more files in the Apple Guide extension and they want to make it necessary.

Maybe it is because I have a RADEON?
I think it affected my Voodoo cards too...

WOW, this is one long thread.

------------------
Life in the fast lane leads to:
The Resteraunt At The End Of The Universe

despaxas
07-05-2001, 04:29 AM
here's a big chunk to chew on: http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000154-2.html
I listed the drivers and versions that I got to work with the card, but the first page has more on the AppleGuide extension and driver versions.

Macdaddi2u
07-06-2001, 12:03 AM
Thanks that list is just what I needed, I have 4 of the 9 extensions already, just have to find the others...and yes the length of this thread is a bit embarrassing http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

M.Brane
07-06-2001, 01:52 AM
This is a great thread. I have learned a lot about my options for video acceleration from your adventures. http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

------------------
Safely behind the bleeding edge.

magician
07-09-2001, 03:30 PM
the easiest way to ensure you get the correct cable to connect to the pod might be to simply call ATI and order from them. You do need to be careful with their cables.

you should have few problems with the Rage 128VR under all revisions of MacOS between 8.6 and 9.04. Under 9.1, you will have to fiddle and tweak and struggle a bit, but it is possible to get it all to work nicely.

Macdaddi2u
07-17-2001, 10:58 PM
I have secured the correct 7 pin S-video cable, 5$ from ATI and 10$ UPS ground http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif .....I have power to the TV box,I have working TV on either monitor, the indicator lights does come on the ATI TV box, but the control panel says Mac2TV cant find a display device and everything in the control panel is gray....Ugh!!! Still looking for the correct set of extensions......patience is a virtue....

[This message has been edited by Macdaddi2u (edited 18 July 2001).]

Macdaddi2u
07-20-2001, 10:51 AM
To save much reading, once more...8500,xlr8 G3500,OS. 9.1,xlr8 USB,Voodoo 5 5500,ATI Xclaim 128VR. I am trying to get the Xclaim to work correctly. The latest effort was to completely uninstall and reinstall the ATI software. I first installed Universal Installer 4.2 then updated with 1.1.1, no joy...message read could not dectect any ATI hardware. Then added Open GL 1.2.1 same message (1.1.1 is supposed to have 1.2.1 in it but tried anyway without luck). Next I uninstalled the all ATI software again, Reinstalled 4.2 followed by Open Gl 1.2.1...The TV works with this but going to ATI displays still reveals the following message...Mac2tv can not detect output video device.....all of the control panel is gray...

kaye
07-20-2001, 12:00 PM
I'm reading the Radeon manual about Mac2TV (I know you don't have a Radeon) and it says that a resolution which has a supported vertical refresh rate of 60Hz must be selected. I never tried this Mac2TV on the Radeon which is supposed to dim the monitor when Mac2TV Video Out is initially turned on (to protect the monitor). Looks like the Radeon/Mac2TV will automatically select 60Hz IF the resolution you are currently running has 60Hz as a supported monitor option.

I would open Monitors CP, select a resolution @ 60Hz, reboot, and try to open Mac2TV. Does this work? Again, I have no experience with this option on the Radeon, let alone your ATI card. k

Macdaddi2u
07-20-2001, 01:57 PM
Thanks Kaye, I think you might be onto something with the resolution. The monitor that is connected to the ATI card right now offers 62,67, 70,75 for resolution frequencies. I have another monitor enroute right now and should have it by friday. It is a bit more flexible and has at least one setting at the 60 mhz frequency 1600 x 1200. I shall give it a try.

Macdaddi2u
07-23-2001, 02:51 PM
Well, going to 60mhz resolution frequency isnt going to help since its the 128VR card that is dictating what my options are and none of my options include 60mhz.

Macdaddi2u
08-09-2001, 11:44 AM
Dont know how or when it happened, but looking in the contol panel, I now have one 60hz setting, 640 X 480. I still have grayed out boxes in the ati displays and M2tv "can not detect any video output device"....what is and where can I find " FCP 1.2.5"? Thanks

Macdaddi2u
08-09-2001, 12:03 PM
More strangeness....set the display at the 60hz setting, rebooted, checked the setting, the 60hz setting disappeared and it automatically set itself at 75hz 800 X 600...this sounds like voodoo and I dont mean 3DFX.

despaxas
08-13-2001, 03:47 AM
I'm not much help with the other probs, but the FCP is Final Cut Pro 1.2.5. It updated a few ATI extensions, so I listed which ones. In the ATI control panel, do you have your correct monitor selected? I'll check my control panel when I get home.

magician
08-15-2001, 04:06 PM
ok...i think i'm missing something basic here....the problem is that the Mac2TV part of the control panel sees nothing?

what is plugged into which ports on the purple pod, and which cables did you use to do it?

i think narrowing things down to this will leap this thread forward.

unless I'm not getting this?

http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif