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belzoid
07-06-2001, 12:41 PM
What type of problems occur when a video card manufacturer goes out of business? In general and in the case of the Voodoo5 card.

If I were to acquire one what are the pitfalls with regards to hardware or future system upgrades, etc.?

Also what if any relationship does it have to existing hardware in the computer such as RAM or other?

At what point is it unwise to consider a card from a defunct company?

In my particular case I am upgrading my 8500/225Mhz/272Mb RAM with a G4 Ziff card and need to upgrade the video card as well. It will eventually at years end be replaced by a new G4 and be converted to perhaps a server.

kaye
07-06-2001, 12:59 PM
b,

I have a V5 card in an S900. It works just fine for me up thru OS8.6. There are reasons I am sticking with 8.6 in that computer but I believe it works up thru 9.1. Others will have to comment. I have not tried the V5 in my PTP which has 9.0.4 and 9.1.

The problem with a defunct manufacturer is that there are no more updates to software/firmware, and in the case of the V5, the existing stuff does not fully tap the capabilities of the card, though it does utilize to some degree the dual processors on the card. I have heard noises that some of the ex-employees might get together and provide future support, like for OSX, and more mature software for 9.1 and earlier. The V5 is a great 2D/3D applications card for me and others have said it is an outstanding 3D gamer. And for cheap these days, especially since you are going to get a new box soon.

I did not find any incompatibilites with RAM or other. I have a Newer G3-500/250/1MB in the S900, both defunct manufacturers. Every time I put something in that box, the company goes belly up. k

belzoid
07-06-2001, 01:10 PM
What happens to a video card's performance when its drivers no longer are updated and a new operating system is installed?

kaye
07-06-2001, 01:17 PM
Its software may still work. If it does not, then probably no 2D/3D acceleration, no dual processors, and the card, while it still may work, will be toad slow. What OS are you running? And what OS are you planning on? k

belzoid
07-06-2001, 01:49 PM
I'm currently running 9.1. Its significantly slower in starting up taking up to 4 minutes before all partitions and icons load up on the desktop. I seem to recall 8.6 running with more stability and quickness. There are one or two things i'm running that required OS9 or higher (i think USB related items) which is why i upgraded.

(Sidebar)
I have quite a few extensions but the desktop loading is terminally long. Symptom of anything here? Or is that common with OS 9's? No changes after defragging drives.

My intentions are to transform the 8500 into a network and print server. My network would only be a G4, with 1 maybe 2 PC laptops and a printer. Since I know little about setting up servers I don't know what to say about which OS I would prefer. I seem to recall hearing the OS X would make good server software. But I suppose my needs are minimal, low traffic and i could be satisfied with OS 9. If hardware goes obsolete with OS X it would make more sense to stay with 9.

I'm juggling also between a XLR8 G3 or G4 Zif. Initially I thought the G4 to allow future growth with OS X. I do use Photoshop but the G3 may provide sigificant speed improvement over my 225Mhz 604e to not wish i had bought the G4?

kaye
07-06-2001, 11:04 PM
B,

It has been so long since I have run a machine without a G3 in it that I don't know what it should take. Yes, OS9.1 has a lot of inits to load, I have it on my PTP with xlr8 G3-500. It goes fast with that card.

The MACh G3 500MHz Carrier, 1MB L2 @ 250MHz $399.99 ea is a great deal here http://www.macgurus.com/shoppingcart/showrampage.cgi?xlr8boards2cz.html , price recently lowered. It would sure accelerate Photoshop even without Altivec. At the end of the year you will be doing Photoshop on a new G4 anyway. Just some thoughts. k

Macdaddi2u
07-07-2001, 04:33 PM
I have an 8500 OS 9.1, XLR8 G3/500, w/ Voodoo 5 5500, I love this card.....no headaches! http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif the XLR8 card got me the speed, the voodoo took care of the frame dropping, together things like photoshop are now a pleasure instead of time torture.

[This message has been edited by Macdaddi2u (edited 07 July 2001).]

dragon_x
07-08-2001, 12:28 AM
I have a PTPro with an XLR8 G3/466 @ 500/250/50 with 9.1MacOS. It works well. I also have a V5 & ATI RAGE128VR, along with 4 other PCI cards.

I'm currently running 9.1. Its significantly slower in starting up taking up to 4 minutes before all partitions and icons load up on the desktop.
This does sound a bit long.
How much RAM do you have?
Do you have any PCI SCSI cards?
How many fonts do you have?
Is file sharing enabled?
Did you run a CLEAN install of 9.1?
What are you optimizing your drives with?
Have you reformatted any drives?

It sounds like you have several drives you could boot from. I would do a quick clean install of 9.1 on another drive/partition and see if there is any difference. If you have a drive you can reformat, this would be even better.

Also if you are timing the boot from when you hit the power on key, you need to consider that the SCSI card (if any) and RAM can add a lot of time to the boot process. The Mac scans the RAM during boot to make sure its 'good' and its only 60ns, so its fairly slow.


I seem to recall 8.6 running with more stability and quickness. There are one or two things i'm running that required OS9 or higher (i think USB related items) which is why i upgraded.
Me too. I didnt have many USB issues, but I did have firewire issues. 9.1 is not perfect for FW either, but it is much better. Its also nice to get QT 4 and many other updates not included with 8.6 automatically installed. I think 9.04 is probably my fav since it seems to have the best of 8.6 and 9.1, but I havent used 9.04 much.

Things like Netscape seem to crash and lock the system up. I think this may have happened ONCE on 8.6, but it is farily frequent (twice a month) in 9.1 - and I'm careful. Also I've noticed iTunes seems fairly unstable in certain situations. My work system crashes a lot when I run Exel 2001 - I really HATE M$, but I must admit that IE 5 works really well with 9.1 on a fast system. Its very stable and allows me to scale the fonts correctly for my screen resolution. MacOS 8.6 seemed much more forgiving when apps crash and the OS rarely crashed.

MacOS 9 handles screen resolutions a little different. It seems to be a bit chaotic at times. Mac OS X also seems to be this way esp with unsupported cards. I think there is a cause-effect there somewhere.

My intentions are to transform the 8500 into a network and print server. My network would only be a G4, with 1 maybe 2 PC laptops and a printer. Since I know little about setting up servers I don't know what to say about which OS I would prefer.
You would probably be best served with ClassicMacOS. I'm no expert here, but I'm running a Mac 'Router' on 8.6 with IPNetR and it works great. I just finished hosting a LAN party and it held up well. Its been solid for over two months and has been much more reliable than the DSL or Electric companies. Its a PCurve G3/290Mhz - probably overkill. I bet you might even get away with running a 200Mhz 604e for your setup.

I'm juggling also between a XLR8 G3 or G4 Zif. Initially I thought the G4 to allow future growth with OS X. I do use Photoshop but the G3 may provide sigificant speed improvement over my 225Mhz 604e to not wish i had bought the G4?
I would not expect any easy installs or support for X on an 8500 or any PRE-G3 system. If you want to make your 8500 faster - get a G3. Photoshop will benifit from a G4, but if you are looking to get a new system in 6 months or less, your probably better off saving money on a G3.

I would say a 300Mhz G3 is my min system right now. Anything slower is just too slow to be used on a regular basis. Classic will probably be my main os for another 6 months or so.. maybe longer. I will probably keep my old systems running classics, unless i get a spare experimental Mac http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif MacOS 9.1 is new and has over 15 years of history behind it, so it should be very useful for many years to come.



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Life in the fast lane leads to:
The Resteraunt At The End Of The Universe

ChrisYip
07-08-2001, 12:32 AM
The more things (peripherals you have) the slower the boot - my one lab machine has about 10 SCSI things hanging off it and it takes FOREVER to boot - just because it starts scanning all the buses... If you are sure your RAM is good, you can turn off the Startup Memory Test - that'll speed it up... also - check to see that you aren't trying to mount up some network drive, and / or that you have specified a start-up disk.. Otherwise, you can do the usual trim-the-extensions approach...

I know my Lombard takes a while to boot up as well - the HD icon shows up and then it sits for a while before all the desktops icons appear...

Chris

belzoid
07-08-2001, 05:18 AM
How do I disable the startup memory test?

hardware and connections info:
8500 with 225Mhz 604e upgrade card
272 RAM
Fonts controled through Font Reserve
(need to go in and toss out about 10 unwanted installed fonts)
File Sharing Off

1 USB/Firewire PCI card
SCSI: CD Burner,ZIP
Firewire: Epson 1600 scanner
USB: Alcatel Speedtouch DSL modem, Epson 1200 printer
Ethernet: HP Laserjet 5000

I run Norton Utilities and Speed Disk on a regular basis.
Not entirely sure but i believe i did the clean install for 9.1.

************************************************** ********
An additional question if anyone knows how to resolve this one.

I was having problems with my system crashing a lot and DSL connection problems and yanked the File Exchange Preferences and replaced it with a file from another computer. I then tossed the old file but it keeps showing up in my Norton reports.
--- Aliases were NOT created for the files below ---
Core Reactor:TP2 TrashCache:File Exchange Preferences bad?
Could that be a TechToolPro file? Its an invisible file and i don't know how to delete these.

dragon_x
07-08-2001, 12:23 PM
I just timed the boot up for my PTPro G3/500
the time is from when I hit the power button on the keyboard
25 sec Gray screen - this is where I think the Mac checks the RAM & SCSI buses
45 sec MacOS screen appears extensions start to load
57 sec XLR8 ext loads (the first ext)
1:45 sec the desktop is up

This takes a little longer when my Firewire drives are connected. If I have a firewire hd conneced but powered down it will either take 10 minutes for the OS to figure this out or it have to force restart and completely disconnect it.

Ethernet DSL 'modems' are much better than USB. I've never had a USB modem, but I've heard they can be iffy.

My CPU is probably about 3X faster than your stock CPU, so adding a fast G3 could REALLY speed things up. So my system may take about 5 minutes to boot if it were a 225Mhz604e http://www.macgurus.com/ubb/eek.gif I have 480MB (interleaved) RAM and 2 SCSI cards - but I also boot off a RAID-0 AtlasV 7200RPM partition - so that will make up some of the time lost. You should time the boot time difference when the RAM test is disbabled. Hold down the OPTION + Apple keys when opening the Memory control panel.

You might want to check out DiskWarrior. It optimizes the directories on the HD. Not sure if Speed Disk does this.

M.Brane
07-08-2001, 04:51 PM
That Trash Cache file belongs to Tech Tool. I had that stuff on my 8500 G3 400 but since turning it off it seems a little snappier and definately more stable w/9.0.4 http://macgurus.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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Safely behind the bleeding edge.

MacMikester
07-08-2001, 07:13 PM
Hey belzoid,

You have NUM. You can use FastFind to find invisible files, then go in under settings, make them visible and slam dunk them. You might be quite surprised to find out how much invisible crap infests your drives.

I used to benevolently tolerate TechTool's "protection" extension (this is what creates the trash cache files) until I was playing around one time using ShrinkWrap to create 650 MB disk images to use for burning CDs. I created two and deleted them but the trash cache 'saved' them for me, taking up all my remaining space on that volume. Any program function that stupid is not staying on my list of utilities. If you set TechTool to scan or update at startup or shutdown, it creates the most annoying delay you can imagine. I use TechTool strictly on a manual basis.

Regards

[This message has been edited by MacMikester (edited 08 July 2001).]